Model 12: Using A Hardware Pre-amp - Connecting and Configuring

[tommyzai]

Would someone kindly list/illustrate how to connect the following?
I am confused about cables, settings, and phantom power (thinking double 48v is probably not good).
Note: I haven't used hardware since the 90s. I'm very rusty.

1. Condenser Mic
2. Hardware Pre-Amp
3. TASCAM Model 12

Thank you!!

 

[Mark Richards]

The Model 12 has built-in Ultra-HDDA mic preamps that can provide +48V phantom power for condenser mics. Are you sure you need to use an external mic pre-amp?

But if you do, connecting depends on the external pre-amp output: mic level or line level; and the type of output jack: XLR, TRS, or TS. If it's line level output it must go to the Model 12 TRS combo line level input jack. The external pre-amp supplies the phantom power.

 

[tommyzai]

Hi!! I'll be using a Summit Audio 2BA-221 (pic attached). It has XLR at +4 and 1/4-inch at -10 and there's also an insert. I'm wondering if that insert allows me to connect Model 12 to this pre--amp using a simple TRS Cable. If not, can I use the XLR out to the XLR in of the Model 12 without using Model 12s phantom power? Some units seem to disengaged the +48v when using a TRS and engage with an XLR. Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[shredd]

Even with no knowledge of the S/Audio gear, it's safe to say the the "insert" is for side-chaining an external unit (EQ, comp'r, etc) - not for signal access (though surely someone's tried it...).
If I were me: I'd go directly from the mic to the M12's inputs (using its' 48v)...unless there were specific reason/s to prefer the outboard pre.

In any case: all of the pertinent info is in the gear's manual/s, and probably all over this forum too. RTM, learn/know the block diagram, read the Sticky Posts in the forums here, and learn to use the search function. You'll be able to help yourself much better than others will be able to help you.

Good luck!

 

[tommyzai]

I will be using an external pre amp and compressor. My research indicates that I have options....

1. Mic via XLR to preamp to Model 12. Compressor connected via TRS insert. Would TRS cable be best into M12 from pre in this scenario? If so, will 48v be automatically disengaged?

2. Mic via XLR to preamp with compressor side chained/connected directly to pre, then out of pre and in to Model 12.

Any thoughts on cables and configuring Model 22?

 

[shredd]

Scenario 1 will totally work. You won't NEED the 48v supplied by the M12, 'cuz the preamp will supply it (assuming it's turned on!). And a TRS from preamp to M12 would be a good idea - assuming your preamp's output IS a TRS connection...otherwise, just go w TS.

Scenario 2 sounds like the same setup, just different wording...isn't "side-chaining" what the insert circuit is FOR??

 

[tommyzai]

Thanks. The difference between the two scenarios is how the compressor fits into the chain. I can either have it inserted into preamp or inserted into channel 1 or 2 of M12.

Any thoughts on which would be better?

 

[shredd]

Aha! Subtle but significant difference.

I’m not sure it’d make a hyoog difference where you inserted the compressor…I guess I’d probably say do some test recordings & see if you hear something that suits your preferences.

If it matters - my instincts say earlier in the chain is better (insert in preamp).

But I’m spitballing…there’s guyz here WAY smarter/more experienced than me. I haveta remember which way the pointy end of the git’r goes every time I sit down to play…

 

[tommyzai]

Thanks. The difference between the two scenarios is how the compressor fits into the chain. I can either have it inserted into preamp or inserted into channel 1 or 2 of M12.

Any thoughts on which would be better?

 

[tommyzai]

Thanks, Shredd
I'm leaning the same way . . . connect the compressor to the pre-amp. My thinking . . . there are units that have both, so maybe I'm sort of creating my own pre-amp/compressor by connecting them. Yet, if someone much smarter and wiser than me sees a problem with this, please . . . .

 

[Max Relic]

Hi @tommyzai ,
Your best bet is option #2:
• microphone to SA pre for best impedance matching
• compressor to SA insert via Y-cable, obviously unbalanced because TRS carries send and return signal, then the signal passes internally through the tube stage
• SA pre XLR output to Model 12 via XLR / TRS (best level / gain match) or XLR / XLR cable.
You can also do the opposite, from SA pre TRS output to Model 12 XLR, and tell us about your findings.

To my mild surprise SA pre outputs are rated the opposite (XLR +4dB, TRS -10dB) than Model 12 nominal input level (XLR -8dBu, XLR -4dBu) so there is room for experimenting with level and gain.

* Read the manual.

 

[tommyzai]

Thanks so much. Any thoughts on using XLR vs TRS out of pre and into M12 as far as phantom power config w/in M12? Would there be any difference and/or advantage/disadvantage using XLR to TRS cable vs. XLR to XLR or TRS to TRS?

 

[Max Relic]

Microphone draws phantom power from the pre stage, in the case in point from SA 2BA-221 (if the +48 switch is on) only. Leave phantom power on the Model 12 off, at least if it isn't needed for other mic inputs.

Re. connections, if what I wrote in post #11 didn't ring a bell maybe you should take the time to read some basic notion about impedance and levels.

Going from XLR balanced output on SA pre to TRS balanced input on Model 12 is a good match level-wise, while XLR out to XLR input is better impedance-wise
but you have to keep an eye on peak level because on a given channel the XLR input has less headroom than the TRS.
Hope it helps

 

[Max Relic]

[...] how the compressor fits into the chain. I can either have it inserted into preamp or inserted into channel 1 or 2 of M12.

In theory, dynamic compression should be placed at the end of the signal path: i.e. on the Model 12 compressor is located after preamp and equalizer. When using outboard pre the Gain control on the Model 12 should only be used for fine level adjustment, provided all the heavy lifting has taken place on the outboard gear (i.e. raising faint mic signal to line level).
Nothing will stop you from applying compression twice (in fact it's a common trick of the trade) or introduce spectrum distortion if it fits your projects, but until you know what you are doing it would be preferable to start with basic scheme like Mic -> Preamp -> Compressor -> Model 12.
Remember that channel 1 & 2 have inserts (send/return) which let you add further outboard processing like chorus/delay, if you feel creative.

 

[tommyzai]

Max,
Would you opt to place the hardware compressor side-chained with the pre-amp or inserted in channel 1 or 2 of M12? You mentioned going either XLR to TRS or XLR to XLR, but is TRS to TRS an option worth considering? You also mentioned, "all the heavy lifting has taken place on the outboard gear." I watched a YouTube vid whereby the producer maxes out levels on outboard gear, then starts really low on M12 and gently raises to optimal level. Does this seem like a good way to work?
Many thanks,
Tommy

 

[tommyzai]

With my components I don't need a direct box, right?

 

[Mark Richards]

I don't need a direct box, right?

Correct. As I wrote earlier:
If the pre-amp TRS out happened to be a high impedence output, then you would need to connect to the Model 12's high impedence TRS combo jack.

...the producer maxes out levels on outboard gear...

If you need a refresher on impedence matching, gain staging, etc., rather than relying on YouTube University, may I suggest clicking on the "Information" link in my sig to travel over to the Recording 101 area of this site. I think Max had posted something similar a while back.

Also, if your Model 12 owner manual (OM) has a Level Diagram chart, that's a good visual for determining proper level matching, along with the info on the Specifications page of the Model 12 OM and the specification pages of your compressor and pre-amp.

...place the hardware compressor side-chained with the pre-amp?

For what purpose? You need to be more specific about why you would want/need to do that.

 

[tommyzai]

Thx. I will pre amp and compress (to various degrees) everything I record. I am just not sure if side chained from pre amp or inserted in channel 1 or 2 of M12 would be better

 

[shredd]

not sure if side chained from pre amp or inserted in channel 1 or 2 of M12 would be better

Just spitballing here:

As it’s been clearly established that either arrangement can work…

Have you considered doing some recording in both config’s, and deciding which you think sounds better?

ALL of the ‘smart guyz’ here (who’ve run professional studios, &/or produced/engineered amazing recordings) regularly point out the most critical component in studio recording is your ears!!!

 

[tommyzai]

My M12 arrives Tuesday. I am trying to order the cables and have a plan beforehand.