DB25 is a connector type. TDIF and DB25 are the same only in that they both use the DB25 connector. Many people use the generic term DB25 for analog cables. Note that there are two different common pinouts for DB25 analog cables, one being Yamaha and the other being Tascam, but there are other custom cables that use the DB25 connector as it is a common multi channel connector for analog and digital.
Alternative for Motu 2408 / extra I/O
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A DB25 cable isn't a specific cable but a specific connector. The pinout of the connector and the cable type used determine what function the cable serves. Digital cables typically have a rating (like 100 ohm or 70 ohm) where analog cables don't use that as a reference. One thing for sure is that analog is not interchangeable for a digital application.
Additionally there are several forms of digital cables. A TDIF cable is a proprietary format specific to tascam. There are also a couple formats of AES cables in the DB25 form factor. Yamaha and Tascam have different interpretations of those. I've never tried using a TDIF cable for an AES application or vice versa but all this stuff is EXTREMELY specific.
I believe you CAN clock via TDIF but supposedly word clock is better. I've always used word clocks even when I used a 2408 to interface a DM24 with my computer. Now I clock my system with my external converter and all my plumbing is digital going into the DM.
I hope that helps clear up the DB25 confusion.
ADAT, TDIF, AES, S/PDIF, MADI all carry a clocking signal in the digital data stream. Some digital audio devices receiving their clock from one of those digital data streams don't always do a good job of accurately extracting the clock from the data in the stream.
Word clock has the benefit of being a clock only signal so using it to send/receive clock from one digital audio device to another is done so well and is so standardized over the years that it is often better to just use it to avoid any possible issues that can occur using the other formats.
In a good designed piece of gear, it should not matter.
Word clock has the benefit of being a clock only signal so using it to send/receive clock from one digital audio device to another is done so well and is so standardized over the years that it is often better to just use it to avoid any possible issues that can occur using the other formats.
In a good designed piece of gear, it should not matter.
I will repeat a TDIF cable and a DB25 audio cable are not the same; wm_b explains this well. So buy TDIF for TDIF and db25 analog for that application.
Gravity Jim and Tuviel shared a couple of sources yesterday for the MOTU 2408 in regard to A/D & D/A conversion and clocking. Although that was useful I have discovered this is what is going to work when it comes to using the analog IO on the 2408:
You can reference page 60 and 61 Windows of the PCI 424 manual for the 2408 or page 62 and 63 for Mac. Read under Analog and TGIF / ADAT. So here's what's working for me in my own words...
In order for me to get output of the 2408 using the analog i/o use I had to set the source to analog. At this point the only clocking that would work was internal or word. For me internal clocking is not the way to go because almost always I will have some other equipment involved that is going to require clocking as well so therefore the universal language is almost always word. The word does not originate from the 2408. The best place is the DM 3200. Send that word to the 2408 and from the 2408 to wherever else you may need it. This according to the pages I have referenced I am sure there are pictorials of this in the manual as well.
the next thing that I want to point out that is explained on these pages as well is that analog i/o of the 2408 is hardwired to bank C and will be duplicated to all other banks and sent via both TDIF and ADAT simultaneously. so you might have to disable certain routing in the DM 3200 when doing this or you will cause havoc in your session. Unfortunately there is no way to disable that. it is not like when TDIF and ADAT are the source and you can select either an individual bank would you get duplicate it all over the place or all three banks in which everything is passed straight through a2a b2b c2c which could be very useful as I will explain later. But first I have to give a great big thank you Audiowave for the information you shared on my thread. Snafu if you have not read it by now I am encouraging you to as Audiowave has shared his matrix setup and equipment. Very very expensive and nice I might add hehe. So I followed his example and because I use the 2408 I had to find a solution to what I mentioned above... more to come...
Gravity Jim and Tuviel shared a couple of sources yesterday for the MOTU 2408 in regard to A/D & D/A conversion and clocking. Although that was useful I have discovered this is what is going to work when it comes to using the analog IO on the 2408:
You can reference page 60 and 61 Windows of the PCI 424 manual for the 2408 or page 62 and 63 for Mac. Read under Analog and TGIF / ADAT. So here's what's working for me in my own words...
In order for me to get output of the 2408 using the analog i/o use I had to set the source to analog. At this point the only clocking that would work was internal or word. For me internal clocking is not the way to go because almost always I will have some other equipment involved that is going to require clocking as well so therefore the universal language is almost always word. The word does not originate from the 2408. The best place is the DM 3200. Send that word to the 2408 and from the 2408 to wherever else you may need it. This according to the pages I have referenced I am sure there are pictorials of this in the manual as well.
the next thing that I want to point out that is explained on these pages as well is that analog i/o of the 2408 is hardwired to bank C and will be duplicated to all other banks and sent via both TDIF and ADAT simultaneously. so you might have to disable certain routing in the DM 3200 when doing this or you will cause havoc in your session. Unfortunately there is no way to disable that. it is not like when TDIF and ADAT are the source and you can select either an individual bank would you get duplicate it all over the place or all three banks in which everything is passed straight through a2a b2b c2c which could be very useful as I will explain later. But first I have to give a great big thank you Audiowave for the information you shared on my thread. Snafu if you have not read it by now I am encouraging you to as Audiowave has shared his matrix setup and equipment. Very very expensive and nice I might add hehe. So I followed his example and because I use the 2408 I had to find a solution to what I mentioned above... more to come...
Thanks for Kudos earthlink45, but I see no increase on my "likes received" counts?
No worries, I don't really care about that kind of crap.
I'll also mention that many digital audio devices that multi digital audio ports will often send any analog output to aloo the digital output s ports at the same time as that is often useful without needed to do any specific kind of additional routing. That also means that if have this digital out ports connect to something like the DM mixer, you have to mute or un-assign them.
I'll also add that this may obvious to many, but when two digital audio devices are connected to one another one has to sycc to the other. One must be Master and one must be Slave. (A bit racist I admit) While you can use Internal for both devices, at some point there is going to a be conflict in the clock data between them and clip/pop fest will lily occur.
In the specific case of the MOTU device, you likely want to clock it to the DM mixer via whatever clock options both the MOTU & DM have. If the MOTU can use External clock to TDIF, that could be used. Word clock could also be used. If using a 3rd digital device, then it gets a bit more complicated in how to best to setup clocking.
No worries, I don't really care about that kind of crap.
I'll also mention that many digital audio devices that multi digital audio ports will often send any analog output to aloo the digital output s ports at the same time as that is often useful without needed to do any specific kind of additional routing. That also means that if have this digital out ports connect to something like the DM mixer, you have to mute or un-assign them.
I'll also add that this may obvious to many, but when two digital audio devices are connected to one another one has to sycc to the other. One must be Master and one must be Slave. (A bit racist I admit) While you can use Internal for both devices, at some point there is going to a be conflict in the clock data between them and clip/pop fest will lily occur.
In the specific case of the MOTU device, you likely want to clock it to the DM mixer via whatever clock options both the MOTU & DM have. If the MOTU can use External clock to TDIF, that could be used. Word clock could also be used. If using a 3rd digital device, then it gets a bit more complicated in how to best to setup clocking.
Ok to minimize the headache I mentioned earlier in regards to the 2408 duplicating analog i/o to all ports here's what I did:
I bought (3) 2408 which gives me 24 analog inputs. on each of these 2408 each I only use bank C TDIF connection going to the DM 3200's, not only because it's hardwired but because any duplication sent anywhere else more than likely would not bother my session inside the DM 3200 / DAW.
My purchase of the first 2408 was primarily so that I could interface my only Alesis HD24 light pipe to the DM 3200 via the 2408. I know a lot of people ask why don't you just record directly into DAW and as I stated before it is rock solid trustworthy and this is most noticeable when simultaneously recording many tracks at once. It also helps me to get away from ITB in the pre-production. This is especially useful when working with the group or other bands. It also helps to strain a lot of unwanted material that would eat up disk space ITB. The benefits go on and on but that is getting off topic. And with all that being said my point is I've connect the HD24's light pipe only to bank B of all 3 2408. This now gives me another 24 inputs in which if I wanted to I could connect to external gear such as all my keyboards, synthesizers and drum machines etc. for example in which come to a track count of 30 plus outputs.
And now I'm connecting other gear to Bank A of the 3 2408. For instance I've got a A/D converter via light pipe that interfaces with a Tascam 238 8-track cassette recorder. And I was going to connect up an MSR 16 but the unit I bought turned out to be a lemon. Although I did get a refund and apparently I am going to be able to keep the item as well so perhaps in the near future I can begin to restore that. But for now I will find something else to connect to all Bank A's more than likely more keyboards synthesizers to free up some of the ports on the HD 24.
Though there truly are only 24 inputs available TDIF on the DM 3200 having everything connected the way that I explained makes life easier and flexible. I can use 24 channels of rack gear or 24 channels of synthesizers or 24 channels of pre-recorded material to samples from or any combination for that matter without having to move wires unless of course it's really necessary.
Next purchase will be the DM 3200 analog card. But for tonight I will attempt what Audiowave explaining his first post today. Basically I think I need to take an output on the 2408 into an input of the 2408 and back to the DM 3200 on a different TDIF cable. For me this involves using two separate 2408 because I'm only using Bank C to connect to the DM 3200. So I'm not sure if that this is the way to go. I'm beginning to think I need to investigate what someone had mentioned yesterday using the PCIe card to get back ITB. This seems like less work if I can get it to work. I just don't know if this is possible using a Windows machine.
I bought (3) 2408 which gives me 24 analog inputs. on each of these 2408 each I only use bank C TDIF connection going to the DM 3200's, not only because it's hardwired but because any duplication sent anywhere else more than likely would not bother my session inside the DM 3200 / DAW.
My purchase of the first 2408 was primarily so that I could interface my only Alesis HD24 light pipe to the DM 3200 via the 2408. I know a lot of people ask why don't you just record directly into DAW and as I stated before it is rock solid trustworthy and this is most noticeable when simultaneously recording many tracks at once. It also helps me to get away from ITB in the pre-production. This is especially useful when working with the group or other bands. It also helps to strain a lot of unwanted material that would eat up disk space ITB. The benefits go on and on but that is getting off topic. And with all that being said my point is I've connect the HD24's light pipe only to bank B of all 3 2408. This now gives me another 24 inputs in which if I wanted to I could connect to external gear such as all my keyboards, synthesizers and drum machines etc. for example in which come to a track count of 30 plus outputs.
And now I'm connecting other gear to Bank A of the 3 2408. For instance I've got a A/D converter via light pipe that interfaces with a Tascam 238 8-track cassette recorder. And I was going to connect up an MSR 16 but the unit I bought turned out to be a lemon. Although I did get a refund and apparently I am going to be able to keep the item as well so perhaps in the near future I can begin to restore that. But for now I will find something else to connect to all Bank A's more than likely more keyboards synthesizers to free up some of the ports on the HD 24.
Though there truly are only 24 inputs available TDIF on the DM 3200 having everything connected the way that I explained makes life easier and flexible. I can use 24 channels of rack gear or 24 channels of synthesizers or 24 channels of pre-recorded material to samples from or any combination for that matter without having to move wires unless of course it's really necessary.
Next purchase will be the DM 3200 analog card. But for tonight I will attempt what Audiowave explaining his first post today. Basically I think I need to take an output on the 2408 into an input of the 2408 and back to the DM 3200 on a different TDIF cable. For me this involves using two separate 2408 because I'm only using Bank C to connect to the DM 3200. So I'm not sure if that this is the way to go. I'm beginning to think I need to investigate what someone had mentioned yesterday using the PCIe card to get back ITB. This seems like less work if I can get it to work. I just don't know if this is possible using a Windows machine.
OK - since I started that thread: A BIG THANK YOU!!!
To all of you guys - really! I appreciate your help, and in this case, your patience! Can't explain where I had my head last night - couldn't sum one and one. Had I kept my thoughts a bit more together, I would have seen the difference of DB25 / TDIF myself - since it's been weeks now, I came across different cables, and gear!
I must point out once more - I'm not a pro (you might have already guessed that); being a amateur is hard though, but my own "studio" all long cherished wish. So to plan, build, and gather info on each topic at the same time is quiet hard. But I promised myself I'd be through with this project before I'm 40 (so there's just three more years to go). And recently I got father for the first time. So to summarize: thank you very much, and thanks to everyone who has enriched this thread by posting solutions, answers, questions, and info on any kind!
To all of you guys - really! I appreciate your help, and in this case, your patience! Can't explain where I had my head last night - couldn't sum one and one. Had I kept my thoughts a bit more together, I would have seen the difference of DB25 / TDIF myself - since it's been weeks now, I came across different cables, and gear!
I must point out once more - I'm not a pro (you might have already guessed that); being a amateur is hard though, but my own "studio" all long cherished wish. So to plan, build, and gather info on each topic at the same time is quiet hard. But I promised myself I'd be through with this project before I'm 40 (so there's just three more years to go). And recently I got father for the first time. So to summarize: thank you very much, and thanks to everyone who has enriched this thread by posting solutions, answers, questions, and info on any kind!
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