US 16x08 (and US-1800 at least) intrument input tone issue

[el touristo]

Ok I just did some more quick testing. Same guitar and settings. If I record the guitar into a mic input using cable adapter, it's good level but sounds even more rolled off that the instrument input. If I record the 'dryout' of the GP10 into a mic input that way it sounds the same as previous record of GPinto line or instrument input. and 'normally bright'. So to review, if I plug the guitar into mic vs inst on Tascam it sound even duller on mic. But if I plug the 'dryout' of the GP10 into either of those it sounds exactly the same. So think about this..it shows how a 'reamp' ciruit might NOT be the same as an actual direct guitar. Because what the GP10 is doing is suppose to be that. I will do a quick check trying to compare the level of the direct guitar with the dryout of the GP10. I have not tried to compare those levels. But yes, I think there is good reason to NOT think 'reamp' devices and attempts are always 'the same' as original direct guitar signal. But once you have a recording, reamping may 'not change it'. So if you have a 'good' original direct recording reamp shoud be ok. But if you have a 'dull' on like is made using the INST setting input on the Tascam you are not getting a 'normal' guitar recording. This may vary some by pickup, but it seems to be a thing and is the main topic of this thread. Bottom line still seems to be that you can't use those INST inputs 9 and 10 as intended without getting a dull sound. Not as dull as using a mic input, but more dull that other input devices and seemingly not correct for guitar.

 

[el touristo]

Yes the level of the GP10 dryout recorded, and then switching to guit plugged directly into same input with same gain setting (not touching anything just change what is plugged in) seem to be exactly the same levels as each other. It is only the tone that sounds different as shown in previous recording.

 

[cripple9]

Yes my sliders jump to unity with a SINGLE click is very annoying. Also If I close the mixer window and reopen it it reverts to an unsaved state and the mains are set to +6 instead of 0 and any settings I made are lost. Also the scene memory thing won't work for me at all. I can't get any of the reamp articles links to work. They all say "
Oops! That page can’t be found.
It looks like nothing was found at this location. Maybe try one of the links below or a search? "

Thanks.

That sucks. All that stuff works normally on my system.

 

[cripple9]

Yes the level of the GP10 dryout recorded, and then switching to guit plugged directly into same input with same gain setting (not touching anything just change what is plugged in) seem to be exactly the same levels as each other. It is only the tone that sounds different as shown in previous recording.

Interesting. What happens if you record the GP-10 DRYOUT through the Tascam's instrument input vs the guitar only through the same instrument input? Can you also try do the same with the Duet maybe?

 

[el touristo]

Update: I suspected my Windows10 to be a little corrupt somehow. I used a restore point and did get some software stability improvement in the mixer. My mixer sliders no longer jump at one click. Also when I reopen the mixer it not longer jumps to +6 on the mains. I will test the scene saving and recall over next couple of days, it seems more functional, it was not saving at all. I will have test is across restarts, power cycles etc. It is surprising that windows itself could affect the slider behavior. Nothing else like that in my system was acting weird. I guess the mixer is more 'tied into' Windows than other software like a DAW for example. I've NEVER had any experience where the condition of Windows affected such thing in applications. But yeah of course this sort of thing is still unfortunately 'normal' with Windows etc. However I'm certain it can never have anything to do with the tone of those inputs. Ultimate I think that is 'just how they are' but I would like to get some technical knowledge of why they don't sound normal. I will be contacting Tascam again soon. BTW those links for reamp discussion still don't work for me. It looks like they are not up. It doesn look like an internet browser issue, I'm on Firefox.

 

[cripple9]

Good luck getting your Windows issues fixed. I've had a ton of conflicts between the US-16x08 & Windows 10. Does your LCF button do what mine was doing in the video?

BTW, all those links work for me in Chrome, Firefox, Edge, and Internet Explorer.

 

[cripple9]

If I record the 'dryout' of the GP10 into a mic input that way it sounds the same as previous record of GPinto line or instrument input. and 'normally bright'. So to review, if I plug the guitar into mic vs inst on Tascam it sound even duller on mic. But if I plug the 'dryout' of the GP10 into either of those it sounds exactly the same.

I may be a bit confused here, but if I understand you correctly, it sounds like you're saying the GP-10 sounds the same when you record it through the mic/inst inputs on the Tascam as it does when you make a recording with the GP-10 alone?

If that's the case, rather than the Tascam removing the high end from a direct guitar signal, I think that means the GP-10 would have to be ADDING some top end shimmer to the guitar signal before it goes into the interface (like an external EQ/preamp). If the Tascam doesn't remove the top end from the GP-10's dry signal, how could it possibly do so to the guitar alone? So you could probably reproduce the results of the GP-10 by tweaking the Tascam's built-in DSP EQ/Compressor which affects the guitar signal before it reaches the DAW. Which of course is why it's there in the first place.

 

[el touristo]

Hmm that's not really what I'm saying. And I'm sure not interested is using EQ to get a normal dry sound (that's never a good thought). You made a unfounded assumption (fallacy). Because the GP-10 dry out sounds the same recorded into either the mic or the inst input of the Tascam means the signal is 'friendlier' to the Tascam, not that the GP is 'adding things'. BUT You HAVE to KEEP remembering, even the 'dryout' of the GP-10 is NOT the same loading or signal as the actual guitar. ONLY the guitar it THAT. You keep implying somehow all things 'guit level' like reamp boxes etc are the same. A thousand times no! So there is sorta a thing that is 'full guitar bandwidth'. At least sorta. And for sure, the tascam doesn't capture it. The GP-10 "guitar out" (which may or may not be the same as the 'dryout USB' which sorta refers to the main outs virtually) anyway..that guitar out is NOT a 'true bypass' guitar signal...for one reason...I DON"T THINK you can 'mult' guitar signal passively because of what all that crap means..so the guit out is conceptually, get this..is a preamped guitar signal ( that is then no longer an actual guitar signal) BUT its set to the SAME level as an actual guitar signal. No I'm not making this up. I'm not saying I'm a super expert or I would be offering that discussion, but I DO know enough to say what I know. I know actual guitar signals present 'unique' electrical 'loading' etc ..if affects the sound. You have to stop 'gaslighting' this discussion as if one of the fundamental tenants of it was 'imaginary'. As said before 'reamping' is NOT the SAME signal, though it CAN produce the same recording. But that does NOT mean it is the SAME thing. You HAVE to study what I keep referring to, that there is NO other signal necessarily the same electrically as an ACTUAL guitar signal. .. in order to start to approach this issue appropriately. I've mentioned the word 'impedance' a couple of times I think. That may play a role here, that where my expertise and immediate knowledge and resources ends at the moment. (I don't study and re-study enough, I don't have any gear with adjustable impedance etc). So it is either impedance alone, impedance in combination with some other guit-connected phenomena, or something 'impedance like'..that is rolling it off on the tascam. I really don't know if these sort of issues can make it sound like it's bass has been cut...I don't think so, I shouldn't mention that it's confusing. But no, inputs don't generally really 'add' frequencies.. they sometimes leave some off. There doesn't seem to be all this confusion with microphones. They usually ALWAYS have the same generally tone NO MATTER WHAT mic pre you plug into, and the differences in the pres are other more subtle things like S/N, distortion, but NOT tone. and NO DIFFERENCE in line inputs (you have to be a lunatic to entertain that disussion). So we are left with the 'guitar input tone challenge. Because you dry recording are supposed to be very similar and 'full bandwidth'. The you do things to it with effects etc later. With guitar inputs 'Usually the highs are what affected...or maybe always, if something is missing, it's the highs, and it's often related to this thing 'impedance'. I appreciate the discussion and I'm asking you to focus on what I'm saying and why. It is the focus and purpose of this thread so you have to be on board with that part. I'm not imagining that. Related discussion is great but please get that this is about guitar inputs rolling off and that 'adding stuff' is not really what inputs do conceptually. You also really need to get that device other than actual guitar that you connect to amp or mixer, even if they are carrying a recorded signal of the guitar..those devices are NOT 'seen' by the input as being the 'same' as an actual guitar. I don't think there any designed to do that actual thing (but Idk for sure) but no not a typical reamp box, its not that any more than the 'guit out' of the gp10 is the same as the actual guitar. It would have to be a special thing if it possible to make, idk if it has been made. Like I said my knowledge is limited but I know what I know. It's interesting. maybe I will read something somewhere that will explain it better. I know it's confusing, but this is all ancient well settled audio engineering concepts. It's late and another day I havn't tried to read up about pickup output preamping (which is what guitar inputs do, even if they don't boost the signal).

 

[el touristo]

some basic stuff I'm reviewing : https://www.harmonycentral.com/arti...or-guitar-effects-and-amps-r428/?tab=comments

BUT the Tascam inst in spec says it "1 MegaOhm or more" (I may not be expressing the term megaohm with exactly the right letters and capitalization). I think it's basically one million ohms. Anyway I'd been reading that spec for weeks now for that reason. So I'm not saying I think or know the impedance is too low. But I'm saying SOMETHING is making is sound like the impedance it too low.

 

[el touristo]

another one: http://whirlwindusa.com/support/tech-articles/high-and-low-impedance-signals/
"

where F = the frequency in Hertz and C = the capacitance in Farads.

These formulas also point out the fact that a specified impedance for an audio device is only going to be valid for a single frequency - the actual operating impedance will vary greatly over the audio frequency spectrum." So maybe it is possible that the stated 1megaohms is not at the same frequency etc. Idk. I just grasping, but that doesn't rule it out as an explanation.

 

[cripple9]

I'm not trying to imply that all guitar signals from reamp boxes are the same. Of course not. If they were, there wouldn't be a million passive and active DI/reamp boxes out there. I was trying to say you need a proper impedance range in order to have a stable repeatable control audio source in a spectrum test.

I get lost in the math with impedance at times myself, but I don't think it's an impedance issue. If it were, then the Duet should preserve a wider spectrum (but possibly noisier) than the others since it's impedance is the highest, and the GP-10 should have the worst reproduction. Generally the higher the better, but within reason. The Duet's Hi-Z input impedance - >2MOhm, Tascam - 1MOhm (or more), GP-10 - 1MOhm. As far as the operating freq sweet spot of a Hi-Z goes, I find it hard to imagine different interfaces would stray too far from each other in that regard. If so, you'd think they'd make a point to mention that somewhere. Maybe even advertise better results with an instrument that has a range complimentary to that sweet spot. That's kinda my whole point with checking the spectrum. If not an impedance issue on the Hi-Z, what else could it possibly be? I really don't know though. My reasoning on how to go about testing it could very well be completely wrong.

Anyway, good luck. Hopefully Tascam will give you a satisfactory explanation, but since they're currently releasing a new line of interfaces, I wouldn't hold your breath.

 

[el touristo]

Thanks. I don't expect Tascam to be too concerned about it. But that doesn't mean it's not an issue. Anyway for my purposes stumming with a real guitar is close enough. If I can hear a difference that way, then I consider any actual different 'normal'. So I'm not even too concerned about the concept of using a single repeatable exact signal. I will do that when comparing mics, headphones, monitors, preamps. If I understood the electronics of guitar pickups well enough to understand the considerations for using a test recording, I could determine if that was possible, and practical to do. If it was, then I would do it. But I don't need it for my purposes for this particular 'investigation' as far as I need it to go. I know there is something off about the Tascam, but help form them may be limited even in understanding why it's off (that's after you can even get them to admit it's off). I may buy a couple of channels of active DI, like maybe an Art, idk. Obviously I'm frustrated the Tascam is not comparable or normal, but I may still keep it and address guitar sound other ways unless I find something else about it unworkable. I just wish Tascam would not advertise it as having guitar input if indeed it is as abnormal as it seems. They may not change that attitude either, idk. I just want them to care about it, at least enough to engage, research and evaluate, and the conclude and explain their position about the current design. I think that last sentence sums everything up, and I don't think that should be considered outside of what they should be interested in.