Stereo file too low

[-mjk-]

@Bambi, the Model 12 has compression on the way it. Use it.

I had a friend who liked to cook Chinese food. But, he was always unsuccessful at it. Things he cooked just didn't turn out right. The vegetables were always over-cooked by the time the meat was cooked. It never turned out like the food he got in the local restaurant. That left him very discouraged.

Since I had been trained in my youth as a chef by several Chinese master chefs (one reason why I learned how to speak Chinese) I went over to his house and showed him the secret: individual preparation.

I filled his wok with oil and got it up to the correct temperature. I then cooked the vegetables to just about right and took them off. Next, I cooked the meat to the same degree. When all the individual ingredients of the dish were properly cooked, I drained the wok of oil and went to work on the sauce. After crafting the sauce, I added all those individual components back to the wok and gave them the high heat treatment, causing them to have that "Dragon's Breath" flavor so highly regarded by chefs and customers. That only took a few seconds at the end of the process.

Trying to do everything at once, rarely works well. With almost everything, breaking the work up into parts makes the end results better. In the case of audio recording, one can hardly expect that with a mixture of wildly differing instruments, all with differing amounts of dynamics and peaks, a single bus compressor at the end of it all will do the job.

By the time the song is ready to be mixed, it should be make up of perfectly crafted sections. That crafting is much more than just the musical arrangement. Each section should be as best prepared as possible to represent the end result. That means taming those unruly transients and using the EQ to neutralize anything that should not be there. The tracks should be "cooked to the proper degree" however, and not over-cooked.

Then, when you mix, you are preparing that special sauce and administering the heat so you can get the Dragon's Breath going. It's no coincidence that a good mix is said to have lots of "air" in it.

This is what engineering a recording is all about. It is a combination of production design and audio engineering that results in a predictable product at the end of a meticulously planned and executed series of processes.

The truth is, I mix a lot of mixes. I spend the time up front to get submixes (in the DAW revolution people started calling these "stems" but that's really a motion picture term) sounding just how I want them to sound in the mix. Most of my guitar work is at least 6 tracks. Recently I did section of guitars that was 9 tracks total. Those are submixed on to 2 tracks, in stereo across the tracks. But workflow that came from the old 24 track days. We didn't have a Pro Tools project with 120 tracks open. We had 24 tracks and that was it. Digital tape was 32 tracks max. So, we had to do submixes. Lots and lots of them. Since the studio where I was based only had two LA-2A compressors, if I wanted them on the background vocals, piano and lead vocal, I had to use them on at least 1 submix so I could have them available for the mix. Nowadays, with virtually unlimited tracks and as many instances of a plugin as your CPU can handle, people just aren't doing this like in the old days. But, the results speak for themselves (i.e. all your favorite 80s tunes). This explains YouTube advice like "bus everything." They are searching for the elusive Dragon's Breath.

龍的氣息難以捉摸....

 

[Mark Richards]

Bambi, be aware that mj's process applies stereo compression to optimize the dynamics for each particular stereo grouping.

A stereo compressor is preferred for a stereo submix to assure the compression is applied equally to the left, center, and right segments of the stereo group.

Absent a stereo compression capability, you'll likely need to work your submixes in mono, or try to get the settings on two mono compressors as closely matched as possible for your stereo submix.

This portastudio tutorial may help point you in the right direction if your Model 12 is capable of similar routing. Perhaps there's a similar video in the 24/16/12 tutorial video sticky thread.

 

[Arjan P]

I totally understand where MJK is coming from. And I started recording my band ping-ponging with two stereo cassette decks, and after that 4-track cassette, so I know about limitations. But I also must say that working with sub-mixes, including using compression on them, is only one type of approach.

Personally, I only use submixes (to stereo) if I have to, and I have to if my audio interface limit is reached (that's 32 channels). If I have 6 guitar tracks, yes, I will mix and balance them all in Solo mode, connect their faders in my DM3200 and then in the final mix can control 'guitars' as a group separately from the rest. I prefer to have maximum dynamics in my stereo mix (and yes, it sometimes means 'taming transients' before the mix - usually percussive sounds) and then master as a separate process. But also this is only one type of approach.

 

[-mjk-]

Well said @Arjan P. Always more than 1 way to do something.

 

[Bambi]

Hello guys, thank you for your messages. MJK, that's a very beautiful story to explain audio production. And it's very appropiate too, as I also like cuisine very much. I love carefully crafted work in music and in every human activity, and your process seems very meticulous on this sense. Talking about limitations, I sometimes like to complicate myself. For me it's at the same time a source of frustration and fun, depending on the day I agree that, for people who have experienced the analog limitations on a professional setting, the digital world represents a wealth of possibilities (after a sometimes arduous adaptation process, we must say). But your experience on the analog world also gives you some great advantages compared to the digital natives, like the submixing workflow you've developed, for example.

Mark, thank you very much for the compression info and for the video. On the Model 12 you can apply compression after recording. However, as there is not a bounce preconfigured option, you have to follow a different path to compress the same track several times. I'm following the suggestions you and JSchmo_Bass have made on other threads (like recording a single track with compression on the Main 11/12 channel and then swapping that recording to an empty track). I'm experimenting a little bit with compression to see how it works with my different instruments.

Arjan, thank you for your different approach. I'm actually worried about dynamic loss in my mixes. It's difficult for me to mentalize of having to use compression unavoidingly to rise the volume of my mixes, as I hate changing the sound of my instruments after so much time spent trying to get the best out of them here at home. It's sad for me, as it's a mixed feeling of not wanting to do it and not having much option left

 

[paddy_yo]

I normalized the file in PreSonus and it brought the volume up but not much

 

[paddy_yo]

Does anyone have an official answer for this issue? I too am seeing my levels and thinking that I’m recording at a sufficient volume I move the wav file and play it on my computer and I can barely hear it.

 

[Mark Richards]

Does anyone have an official answer for this issue?

At least three professional audio engineers have engaged in this discussion. That's about as "official" as it's going to get regarding "Stereo file too low" issues.

Those who have the Model 16 or Model 24 FOH analog mixer need first to understand the difference between Zero VU and Zero dBFS as it's implemented on these two FOH mixers.

Those who have the Model 12 FOH digital mixer need first to have a good understanding of average-to-peak ratios and how to use them to best advantage.

In both cases, one needs to understand the concepts of "unity gain", "gain staging", and the way EQ, compression, limiting, and FX interact and impact the overall dynamic range of the recording.

Gain staging from tracking through mixing; maintaining good average-to-peak ratios throughout; effective use of compression gain and limiter gain; and monitor level vs printed level are the parameters involved.

It takes book study and experience over time to hone the skills needed. That's just the way it is.

There's a post in the DP-24/32/SD Production Tips stickies on "Mastering" levels that may help further.

My audio goal is a high fidelity "musical" sound (full, rounded, dynamic) that can be appreciated on a good home stereo system and headphones designed to emulate a good home stereo system. Some current examples and brief production notes can be found among the threads and posts in the "Song Mixes" and "Mixing" forums.

To troubleshoot levels, try this simple experiment:

• With all mixer faders and trim knobs set to unity gain and all other EQ, compressor, limiter, and FX controls off , using a sine wave/tone generator, record a steady 400 Hz tone at -12 dBFS (if you have a Model 12) or at Zero VU if you have a Model 16 or 24. Use the output level control of the tone generator to achieve the desired input level on the mixer, as shown on the mixer's meters.
• Transfer that recording to your D.A.W. and set all D.A.W. faders and trim controls to unity gain, and set all EQ, compressor, limiter, and FX controls off.
• For the Model 12, your D.A.W. should reproduce the steady tone at -12 dBFS.
• For the Model 16/24, your D.A.W. should reproduce the steady tone at about - 20 dBFS (see chart below from the Model 24 OM Level Diagram).

See this related post on unity gain.
See this related post on Model 16 and 24 metering.

This is why the signal taken from the 16/24 SD card plays at a lower volume level on the computer. And -20 dBFS was the correct design choice given the intended purpose of the analog Model 16/24 mixers: "Multitrack Live Recording Console".