Someone using Reaper 6 with the DM3200?

[snafu]

Hey mjk,

not sure if I did - what exactly do you mean by loop back test?
I left the land of Samplitude and are 85% of the time on Reaper now

 

[-mjk-]

Using the ReaInsert plugin, you can check the roundtrip latency of your system and compensate for it with an exact number. It's very easy to do with a console (and safer too).

Here is the procedure: https://reaperblog.net/2018/11/rec_latency_offset/

Instead of using an outboard interface, just use a channel on the console and one of the Main L/R bus channels.

 

[snafu]

Ah, I see - thanks for clarifying.

I - in my case - would say: fortunately not

So far I had no latency issues of any kind.

What I can state is that I have a lot of connections here going into the DM, and from there on into the PC.

Most of them go via firewire card, some via IF-AN/DM card (inputs AND outputs), some via the TDIF ports A and B (connected to two units of Tascam DA8s).

If I wanted to match the analog signals with the digital ones frame tight, I could propabliy do so, but for the time being I can't see that much of a benefit for me, because everything works fine

Would such a test be of any help for you?

 

[-mjk-]

My connection between console and PC is Dante. After testing and adding the reported number into the compensation area, the Reaper delay (added during recording) functions very well. Recorded performances are perfectly timed on playback so it seems to have benefitted my setup.

 

[snafu]

My connection between console and PC is Dante. After testing and adding the reported number into the compensation area, the Reaper delay (added during recording) functions very well. Recorded performances are perfectly timed on playback so it seems to have benefitted my setup.

That's actually pretty interesting. You got me tempted right now

I've been through the video, and also the blog post. I would love to know how Reaper treats this under the hood. In my scenario I have variable signal sources:
- Everything comming from my life room (mics, lines) will have to be plugged into a wallbox, and than take a 16m trip to my patchbay, and from there another 3m to the inputs of the DM3200.
- Should I use my Fredenstein preamp for guitar recording, I will have 1,50m guitar cable, plus 3m to the patchbay plus another 3m to the DM input.

Physics alone tell me that there are different delay times for the signals to take the round trip.

So what's going to happen, if I record guitar and vocals at the same time?
How's Reaper going to treat signals with different dealy times?

As for now: as I said, the delay times that do occur are no grave issue to me.
On the other hand it would be interesting to see, if I could benefit from a more streamlined delay compensation.

Do you have any insight how Reaper would treat different signal sources with different delay times? I'm on Reaper for only six month now.

regards
snafu

 

[-mjk-]

Well Snaf, Reaper only knows about what the ASIO driver reports and what you've entered for compensation. So, it would take those signals as they arrive and record them. Throughout my career in analog studios, we never had issues with long cable runs with mics, or even with wireless guitar rigs and performances being out of time. The latency of those hardware items was negligible. Now, today's D/A processes and computational delays are another story.

I basic idea is that Reaper adds delay to the playback of the tracks so they align sonically with your performance, based on the latency reported in ASIO and what you've entered, if anything.

There are 2 delays that I'm aware of and that is (a) the signal round trip and (b) the processing delay. The loopback test goes through the console and back to Reaper so it takes both of those situations into consideration and gives a single number that you input into the compensation field. One might argue that the round-trip latency figure reported by Reaper also includes the processing delay but there are factors that affect the trip time but may not affect processing. And those who use plugins know about processing delays being dynamic. In the case of Dante, you can do things to the network configuration that add latency to the round trip but Reaper doesn't know because ASIO doesn't report that. The ASIO reporting in Reaper is located at the upper right corner with the interface settings so you can make changes and see what happens.

I use MIDI for drums and also for some keyboard stuff, but I do mostly performance-based recording. I monitor the Reaper tracks I'm recording to on the tracks' console channels and not on the input channels, typically, so it's round trip (like inline mode on old school recording consoles). I notice no delay when playing live guitar parts, vocals, etc., and on playback the tracks maintain their synchronization. So, the inherent low-latency of Dante plus the delay compensation has virtually eliminated any issues with performance timing and lining up with drums, etc.. I often record with only 2 drum tracks for reference, and then later, break out the drums over 8 tracks, 1 or 2 instruments at a time with MIDI control. They always sound in perfect time with the previously recorded performances (as they should, but sometimes do not). For all intents and purposes, running my console in in-line mode with Reaper/Dante and with the loopback test delay compensation, it's like I'm working with the API and the Studer again.

That is about all I can tell you because I'm no expert on this subject by any means. But I thought you would find it technically interesting and perhaps useful. It takes only a few minutes to do the loopback test and see what Reaper reports for a round trip delay. It would be interesting to see what you find out

 

[Arjan P]

I must say it's all very interesting, but I have had no latency issue ever with Cubase and the DM. Cubase measures latency (well, has it reported I guess) and I never had any issue. That is, while I always monitor live sound from the mixer and never from the DAW..

 

[snafu]

@mjk: thanks for you in depth explanation. As soon as I can spare some time, I will give this a shot.

I thought you would find it technically interesting and perhaps useful.

Both indeed
But as Arjan stated - I never had any latency issues. But you already had me with "analog" - my background is very analog to begin with, so as I stated one: "Nothing beats the speed of light in a solid copper cable"

I guess I connect the longest I/O chain then, to see what maximum delays I'm dealing with?
In my case: mic input to monitor output.

...ah, those were simple times back then

 

[-mjk-]

@snafu, it will only measure the round trip latency but the test won't ping the mics at the end of a cable . Just for reference, what is ASIO reporting in the upper right of Reaper?

 

[-mjk-]

@snafu you can get your geek-on reading this thread about Reaper PDC: https://forum.cockos.com/showthread.php?t=178915

Please ignore the normal flame war part of the thread. Further down is a set of graphics done by a user who performed a number of tests. Reaper doesn't handle latency like other DAWs so, it gives the impression that Reaper has an issue sometimes. Apparently what it comes down to is other DAWs do some kind of latency compensation automatically, whereas with Reaper, the engineer has to turn it on and set it up properly.