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How to avoid delay or latency in headphones when tracking

TascMan said:
I can't believe that I just wrote this big long thing and my computer just BSODed on a page file issue.
Click to expand...
I feel your pain. Have happened to me also more times I can count. No BSOD, but browser crash/jam when hitting "Send"-button. Afterwards always decided to write future replys first with notepad and save them. Never done it.
 
Hi TascMan......thanx for that great reply.
sorry to hear about the BSOD...:(

First off, let me just say that I am not the fellow that was complaining about hearing the echo, or the two voices while recording. That was the fellow that started this thread back in Nov 2013, named 'Chuchi'......

As I stated in one of my earlier posts, I don't really have too much to complain about with regards to Latency, or problems with the DM4800......but if it were possible to totally eliminate any latency....then I would love to try and do that.

Yes, you are also correct when you say I come from an analog world. No doubt about that. Started in 1980 with a Soundcraft 16x8, then an MCI inline 24, then two Neves, 8014 & 8024.......tied to a Studer A-80 24 tr - 2" machine.
Then in 2000 when the digital revolution hit, I sold everything......and over the next few years, slowly started building things back up.....first with the original black Tascam digital consoles.....24 ch....can't remember the exact model #, then a DM3200 and now for the last 5 years or so, a DM4800

We have an operating system down that works......projects saved in our Library that allow us to record, overdub & mix no problem - at all the resolutions.....we love 96KHZ and wish we could go higher.

Have tweaked the Mac Pro & Logic 9 to a point where, as I say, Latency is not really an issue. Even with Pro musicians we work with.....no one ever notices or says anything......but I can hear it.....ever so slightly.....and it bugs me......:)

I absolutely love the amount of feedback that people have been contributing in this post.....It has been many years since I have visited the TascamForums website..... as I was a member years ago......Jarno was just in diapers.....:)
So basically I am a new comer again.....and with all the responses I have gotten regarding this issue.....it really is fantastic to see so many folks weighing in with their own ideas and suggestions.
Including you.

I just need to ponder these options and see if I can get my head around one that would work for us.
The Tascam manual is just the worst.....isn't it.....??
There is no one left to talk to in Canada anymore, since Tascam closed its doors here last year.
And in fact, our local Tascam office actually called me before they shut down to ask me the steps I used to get my Transport system to work with Logic 9.
Using the Synchronization settings, and the Mackie Hughie thing with the Extender.

So the other day I thought I would see if the forums were still alive....and see if I could find any info on this latency issue.....it sure has created a storm....and I like hearing everyone's creative/technical ideas. Fantastic.

Very supportive.

OK....thanx again.
 
I send the cans (monitor) mix to a pair of auxilliaries as pre-fade sends. The DM layers 1,2.3 and Buss control the inputs and DAW mix - the auxilliary controls the foldback / cans mix.

To Tascman - it's worthwhile doin a ctrl-A / ctrl-C before you send a big post - saves that grief ;-).
 
Well then, I hope you can forgive me. I was certainly not trying to talk down to you, but your last 5 posts really didn't sound like they came from a guy who has been doing this for 33 years, nor someone who has had a 4800 for 5 years. That's really the problem with forums. Without meeting or knowing anything about the person you are trying to help, you can only go on the information assumed in the questions that are asked. The concept of "input bypass" is usually asked by someone new to the board, needing assistance in routing concepts. I tried only to emphasize and clarify other's points in a more step by step format.
I also didn't realize that the OP only posted the one question with no reply to the other forum members replies, while you had so many replies. I guess I assumed it was your thread, so my mistake. I quickly read the thread, and provided help.

Now that that's out of the way, where exactly are you having latency problems? I can only assume that you are hearing latency delays when you are trying to monitor a DAW track in real time, while recording to it. Is this an issue with AU/VST instruments? Are you monitoring virtual effects as you record? This certainly would be the place this problem would pop up.
 
Hey TascMan.....absolutely no reason to apologize or feel weird in any way.

As I keep saying, I think it is absolutely fantastic that people like yourself respond in such a helping and supportive way on these forums.
Who can know everything? I certainly can't.....I've always felt that no matter how long you work at it there is always something new to learn every day. If you stop trying to learn, then you may as well pack it in......right.....??

In one of my earlier posts I mentioned how we use our DM4800. Basically again, because of my 'old school' background we set things up like one would in the old days. The computer is basically a glorified tape machine.
We really don't use it for much more than recording tracks. Pretty well all mixing related issues are done on the DM.
I need the console feel.....moving faders, knobs, and dials.....not a mouse.

So.....right now our mic's come in on layer 2.....and go out to the DAW......then the signal comes back from the DAW on layer 1.
Usually we start with the 24 x 24 default project in the Library setting on the DM.
I have probably edited that project somewhat as we use the FireWire card in Slot 1 on the back of the DM to get our 32 tracks (or more) back and forth....not TDIF

So it makes sense that our Latency is coming from the DAW.
The time it is taking the signal to leave the DM, go to the DAW and come back from the DAW.

Even setup as just a basic recorder, with no plugins or anything extra working the CPU, there is a very tiny amount of latency.
We have tweaked the settings in Logic 9 to where we feel we can get away with the most tracks being recorded with the least amount of latency....or CPU problems

Thanks to a few other posters in this thread, I now totally get the concept of sending signal to the DAW and to the stereo buss from the same channel on the DM.....Signal goes to the DAW for recording (using input bypass mode)and Signal goes out the Stereo Buss so I can monitor it, and if I assign the Stereo Bus to Aux 1&2 then I have a headphone mix for the artist(s).

I did play around with that a bit using the 'input bypass' settings on the router page.....
I can only assume you know what my next question is going to be.
How do we get the audio back from the DAW......??

Of course the ultimate would be for it come right back on the channels it went out on, but that can't happen otherwise you'd be in LOOP hell......I'm guessing......??
Or can it.......??
If you are in input bypass mode.....would a return from the DAW on the exact same channels cause a loop....or not....??
Can you send and return on the same layer......same channel.....??

If not, then signal would need to come back on another layer......sent only to the Stereo Out, and not the DAW channel....(to prevent looping).....so basically your setting up 2 full mixes.
That would be kinda crazy to do.....with EQ/Compression etc...on every channel.

So that is where I am at at the moment.
All this for the sake of a tiny bit of latency......crazy eh?

thanks again for your time.......:)
 
Great (many) questions. Glad to hear that you have input bypass working for you.
And yes, sudden looping mistakes can happen, so stay ahead of your routing.

One of the benefits of using Input Bypass is that you can adjust and mix the person being recorded without effecting anything going into the DAW. That signal is untouched.

So, you have each individual DAW track output coming into individual DM input channels for mixing while tracking? Fine. That will work. It's just not as efficient as explained below. Just make sure the DAW track you are recording into has it's output muted while you are recording into it. For monitoring that person, just send his input directly out of the DM's stereo buss. I can't emphasize that enough. I know you want to send that person's input directly to tape (or daw in this case) and be monitoring it's return the whole time, but that won't work here. Send his input to the daw, but monitor his input channel over the stereo buss only.


There would be no latency with this setup. As you play the previously recorded tracks, out through the DM's stereo buss and into his headphones, and he plays/sings and hears himself at exactly the same time through the same DM stereo buss, (WITHOUT coming back from the DAW) there would be no latency. 0. It wouldn't matter if it took twenty mins for the previously recorded music to make it's way out the DM's stereo buss and into his headphones. As long as the person is playing to or singing to what he his hearing out of the DM's stereo buss, any latency delay at the DAW's end will be corrected by the DAW. So, to emphasize again, continue what you are doing but MUTE the DAW's track (not the DM channel) that you are recording into. That should take care of any latency issues. I think I said it enough. Lol.

OK, that's how to do it with your setup. Mine's a little different, but maybe you can get something from it, because you ask if there is a way to come back into the DM on the same channels as the ones you are tracking on. Yes and No. Explanation:

I believe the general workflow concept behind these DMs goes like this....track first, mix second. Master last.
With DM Mic/Line inputs assigned to DAW tracks, one records to their DAW. The engineer would then only have to utilize TWO DM input channels coming in from the DAW; the two channels from the DAW's Stereo Buss. I bring in my DAW stereo buss (SLOT1-1 and SLOT1-2) in on DM CHs 33 and 34. That's the whole DAW mix package coming in on two channels and that's it. Now, I have my FW outputs 1-32 available in my DAW to use as channels to record from, but I never have my DAW tracks (the ones I am recording into) play back while I am recording into them. So, I keep mutitracking instruments and voices, one or two or six at a time. But when I need to playback my DAW for the next person to listen, I can just do a basic mix (yes, with the mouse) and play it back on the two DM input channels. That's it for tracking. Now on to mixing.

Now, I mostly mix in the box, using VST's, VST instruments, volume/pan/effect automation etc. But I also can group certain things, say all my vocals or all my drum tracks, into what are essentially DAW busses, that I can then send back to the DM to do a final mix there.
When I send my grouped DAW busses out to the DM, I have a couple of options when it comes to channel assignments. You CAN send everything into another layer of inputs, or you can utilize something else called Input RTN (return).
If you look at your inputs channels 24-48, you have your mics setup here, according to your previous reply. Do you see where it says "RTN" below the INP?
Here you can flip or "source invert" the incoming signal into the same channel when it is time for mixing. NO, you can not utilize both INP and RTN on the same channel at the same time, (loop Hell) but you COULD utilize the RTN function on channels in groups of of 8. The idea is that you would have your mic/line coming in on the INP, as you already do and then utilizes this "Input Return" function when it comes time to mix, to save on channel count. By listening to only the stereo buss from your DAW while you are tracking, using only two DM channels, and then doing your actual post track mixing utilizing Inp RTN, you are only using up 24+2 input tracks in the DM. So, yes, you can the same channels for tracking and mixing, using input RTN. just not at the same time.

I'd like to dedicate this long reply to the fine folks at Troegs Brewing Company, of Pennsylvania, for continuing to provide me with an excellent adult beverage.
 
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Very interesting reply there Tascman.......thanx for that. Here are a couple questions/issues I am wondering about.

Let's say I am doing a bed track session....10 mics on the kit, 2 on the bass, 1 on a guitar and 1 on a ghost vox. That's 14 tracks going down at once.

While in record mode.....each track must be muted on the DAW.
A pass is laid down, and the band wants to hear playback.......so.....

1 - all tracks then have to be un-muted so they can hear playback from the DAW.
2 - while they are listening to the playback, their actual mics are still live...?

Then they decide to try another take......so then all channels on the DAW need to be muted again.
This is a little fumbly, but I could live with it.

Then in an Overdub session.....let's say a Vocal Overdub session.
Again the channel on the DAW is muted while laying the vocal down.....but when we get to punching in certain sections of a vocal track, this could get kinda troublesome.

Un mute the track....punch in....and if the track is not muted on the DAW then the vocalist will hear a double/echo.....albeit a small one, but unless the DAW can be muted at the exact moment the punch in happens.....there will be an echo.

Too bad Logic doesn't have a feature to MUTE audio when in Record......:)

Am I correct in all of this.....??

Also, I understand your method with the 2 tracks coming back from the DAW.
That would not work for me as I don't want to be mixing in the DAW while working.
I would have to be setting up a mix in the DAW for monitoring.....panning, reverbs on snare/vox's etc..etc......compression....etc...etc....all that would have to be done in the DAW so the artists hear a decent playback......then it would have to be done all over again once the DAW was assigned to inputs in the DM.....and all the settings/effects on the DAW would have to be reset back to zero....when it came time to do a real mix.
I need to mix on the DM, not in the DAW.
Interesting concept though.
 
You can mute Audio while in Record in Logic. I know this because I've used Logic just the same way I use Digital Performer.... Assign the mic input to both the main stereo buss and the input buss in the DAW, mute the track you're recording to in the DAW, hit record and play. No latency, no track timing problems. Because this the simplest way to do it, it's the way I've been doing it for 18 years.
 
I guess what I should have said in my last post was......Too bad Logic doesn't have a feature to AUTO MUTE audio when a track is put into Record.

How do you deal with punch in's then Gravity Jim......??
 
Hey thanx CaptDan......have to think about that one a bit. Seems like a bit of finagling....:)
You know what OD sessions can be like....especially vox's......go, go, go.....having to copy, paste the copy to a new track....start editing/deleting....or muting....the bad parts......I can just hear the yelling now.....'What's going on in there...?":(
 
..."While in record mode.....each track must be muted on the DAW...."

I think I mislead you here. You don't actually have to hit MUTE and then unmute later, at least not in Reaper. You could, but that would be a pain in the ass, as you pointed out. See next for explanation...

First Question;
.."1 - all tracks then have to be un-muted so they can hear playback from the DAW."

In Reaper, there is a button to select "record monitoring ON, Auto or Off" right there on the track, under the volume slider. I always keep my individual tracks set to Record monitoring OFF, which is the default value. This prevents the recorded track from playing out through the DAW stereo buss, or via any individual send...like back into the DM, while recording is being done. (possible latency delay here) However, I also keep all the tracks' outputs set to the DAW's 2 channel stereo buss. This buss I send to two input channels in the DM. When I am recording into that track, I don't actually have it muted, per say, I just DON'T have the record monitoring function set to ON. So, all my tracks can play out of the DAW stereo buss, but the track I am recording into does not play out the stereo buss until I am done recording into it.

Second:
..."2 - while they are listening to the playback, their actual mics are still live...?"

The mics should only still be live if the tracks are armed for recording. But even if the tracks are still armed, you should be able to play them back out through the DAW stereo buss, or individual send to the DM, to give them a quick listen. Just don't hit the record button by mistake or you will rerecord over that armed trac(s).


As for punch ins, I have several options. The main two go like this...I could just playback the track I want to punch into, and when the time comes to punch in, I just hit the record button while the DAW is playing and only the armed tracks go into record mode. They have to armed first, of course. When it is done, and the person wants to hear it, I just move the curser back to where I started and hit play. I don't actually have to unmute anything or even unarm the track for that matter. It will just play back what ever is there.
Or, I can also select an area on the timeline within a track already recorded and set the record function to start when the curser comes up to the selected area, and record into that. Again, curser back and hit play and the new recorded track is there. I think it is pretty similar with all DAWs.

READ THIS AS WELL>>>
As for the later part of your reply, I understand that you don't want to mix in the DAW. So, you would have each track individually outputting its signal into a respective track in the DM, just like coming in from tape. This setup still works just as explained above, minus any mention of the DAW stereo Buss. I just tried it to make sure I could do what you are asking to do. When I punched in, the track did not monitor the previous take's recording while I was doing it, again because I have "Record Monitoring" set to OFF for that track.

I hope this has not made it more confusing... Bottom line, you should be able to record, punch-in and record over previous takes without having to listen those armed tracks while you are recording, using something like "Record Monitor OFF" within that track. No MUTEs or UNMUTEs needed.
 
Hey, well, that is cool and makes sense.....having the option to switch monitoring off while recording. That is great. I will have to see if I can do that in Logic.

Can I change gears here for a second and ask you a question about routing.....??
Do changes in the routing screen get saved to their respective projects in the library.....??

If I go and create a new Library setting called 'no latency'.....and go and change all the settings on my SLOT 2 card to Input Bypass......so I can try all this out.
When I save that setting in the Library will the new routing changes be saved....??

And more importantly, when I go back to my old way of doing things, recalling the 24x24 library setting.....will all the Routing settings be returned to that projects settings?

For some reason I seem to believe that Routing changes do not get saved....and always stay at whatever the the last setup was. Am I crazy....??
 
See this for turning software monitoring OFF in Logic....:

Storing projects to your CF card definitely does store your routing. It's probably the main reason for storing your projects.

Go to ALT/PROJECT/NewProject TAB. Move curser to CREATE, hit ENTER. Name your new project (like 24x24) and hit CREATE. Now change your routing to the way you want it for this project. when done, go back to ALT/PROJECT MANAGE PRJ. tab. Use the wheel to select the project you just named in the window on the right. Now move the curser to STORE and hit enter. Now that project has the routing you put in. To load it for future use, ALT/PROJECT/MANAGE PRJ. again. Use the wheel to select the project you want to load, then hit the LOAD tab. Done

When you shut down the DM, your current routing and settings are stored to internal memory (not CF Card) so that they will be the same when you start it back up. So, if you had your 24x24 project loaded, that will be the one that comes up when you start up again. Need to change that? then go back to the Manage Project stuff and load from the card.
 
Buddy, you are amazing. A video and everything.....what a guy.
Thanx a ton, can't wait to give all of this a try.
One thing.....I don't think I will uncheck 24 bit.....For us, we want to be in 24 bit. Not sure why you said to uncheck it in your video....but Im pretty sure it would not relate to us.
thanx again.
 
HaHaHa...That's not ME!....That's just some video on YouTube. I would never suggest turning off 24bit recording. I just did a Google search on your issue and this video came up.

I don't own a mac or logic.
 
I mean....wait a minute.....YES! I worked all morning on a MAC I don't own to create this awesome video just for you. Just disregard my thoughts on 24bit recording....
So, Thanks! :rolleyes:
oops. Too much coffee again!
 
I gotta admit, you had me a bit worried when I heard the audio on the video was all to the left. I thought to myself.....hmmmm audio guy....:?:

just kidding, thanx again.
 
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