Headphone mix monitor for musicians

[FirstCoastFm]

@FirstCoastFm
The Model 12 doesn't provide a band-size solution for individual headphone mixes but you can do with the help of cost-effective gear: plug the instruments or mics into a patchbay (Behringer PX3000 or Samson S-patch Plus ) arranged as a splitter, then feed each instrument/mic both to the Model 12 and to a headphone amp such this ART HeadAmp6 , then feed the total mix (from Main, Sub or Aux1 outputs) to the HeadAmp Aux input. Each headphone ouput will have individual balance of main mix and "my instrument".


Edit: now link points to the more affordable ART product

Thank you very much.. I'm starting to understand better the process to make this happen.. Thanks again.

 

[Max Relic]

@BazzBass
This thread catched my attention to an aspect of studio organization which I had overlooked so far. At the moment I just use the Model 12 headphone outputs and have a Mackie HM4 to feed additional headphones, but probably I will need more listening options when recording small rock/blues bands.
Thanks go to @-mjk- and all the great forum contributors for sharing their knowledge

 

[FirstCoastFm]

@FirstCoastFm
plug the instruments or mics into a patchbay (Behringer PX3000 or Samson S-patch Plus ) arranged as a splitter".


Edit: now link points to the more affordable ART product

@Max Relic, So I've been doing some reading about patchbays. This is new to me. When you say to use it as a "splitter" is that the same as what I've read as being "half-normal"?
Ok. So I plug, say a guitar, to the top of the 1/4 on the back of the patchbay. The bottom, I love that "waterfall" idea, to the headphone amp. Then on the front of the patchbay on the top 1/4 output, plug that to the mixer (I guess, I'll have to find some TRS to XLR connector for mics. No?).

I do this for each instrument, mic, etc.. Then I take the full mix from the mixer and feed that to the headphone amp. So now, the headphone amp has the input from each instruments from that waterfall idea, and the full mix from the mixer, the model 12. The musician can then raise the volume of his own instrument to his/her liking. I don't imagine that the volume from the mixer can also be adjusted individually?

I'm also reading about DI boxes and I guess at some point I'll figure that one out too. Thanks to all of you for the education you've provided. The more I read the more rabbit holes I go into.

 

[-mjk-]

@FirstCoastFm said:

@@Max Relic, So I've been doing some reading about patchbays. This is new to me. When you say to use it as a "splitter" is that the same as what I've read as being "half-normal"?

No, he is referring to a device that is basically a "Y" cable that can send a mic to 2 destinations.

(I guess, I'll have to find some TRS to XLR connector for mics. No?).

No. Please read this post again.

 

[Arjan P]

To be fair, a half-normalled patch bay can certainly function as a splitter, the way @FirstCoastFm describes. The difference is that when you plug something in the lower front socket, the connection between the two sockets on the back is lost. I believe the mentioned Behringer patch bay has a true splitter function, where anything connected to the top back socket is always connected to both forward sockets.

The usual way to connect half-normalled, to be complete, is to connect the 'usual' input to the mixer (or DP) input via both back sockets, so these are connected with nothing plugged in to the front sockets. Then you can 1. Take the same input (guitar in the example) to go to a headphone box (upper front socket) or 2. Connect something else to the mixer input (lower front socket). BTW, guitar is a bad example here, since the impedance/signal doesn't match line level.

 

[-mjk-]

@Arjan P to reply to your question about the Behringer bay, yes it has 4 modes and can do what you describe. That does have its uses but as you pointed out it's not practical for guitar, hence my simplified answer.

 

[FirstCoastFm]

@Arjan P Thank you. Man, there's so much to learn. I was thinking that based on some of my reading that a DI box would be the tool to use for the guitar to deal with the impedance factor? Do you think that if the DI box was needed that it should be passive or active? I've read horror stories of running phantom power through a patchbay?. Man, thanks again for the input..

 

[-mjk-]

@FirstCoastFm DI boxes can solve a bunch of issues with ground loops and noise, impedance matching, pass through etc.. Every studio should have one. I've used both types and have no preference. Let's see what @Arjan P has to offer by way of experience.

 

[FirstCoastFm]

@-mjk- got an amazon gift card and ordered a
Behringer ULTRA-DI DI400P Professional High-Performance Passive DI-Box and a
Hosa DIB443 Sidekick Passive DI Box. Still curious about the phantom power through a patchbay..

 

[Arjan P]

Usually DI-boxes are used to allow various signals to be connected to microphone inputs, by matching their impedance or signal levels - and making the signal balanced from unbalanced. That's why you'll find no Live Sound company without them. I have a whole number of them in the studio as well, some active and some passive - all by Radial. Some of them are specialty ones, like an active one for piezo (string instrument) elements (Radial Stagebug SB-4) and some are generic and passive, for bass guitar/keyboard. I record guitar usually via a pre-amp or a complete miked amp so don't always need a DI.

In general you can say, if the signal goes from strong to weak (guitar to mic level) a passive DI is fine, if the signal goes from weak to strong (piezo to mic level) an active DI works better.

Mics through a patch bay: don't do it, unless it is a full XLR patch bay, using XLR-XLR patch cables. Any plug with multiple contacts sliding in and out (i.e. jacks) will create shorts. Not always an issue, but one day you will forget to switch off phantom power before patching..

 

[-mjk-]

@-mjk- got an amazon gift card and ordered a
Behringer ULTRA-DI DI400P Professional High-Performance Passive DI-Box and a
Hosa DIB443 Sidekick Passive DI Box. Still curious about the phantom power through a patchbay..

Even better that you got the gear on a gift card! I told you @Arjan P would have some experience to contribute to the discussion. I concur with him 1,000%. Typically microphone patchbays were simply stage boxes more or less that were mounted in the wall of the studio, and brought the cables up into the console. It's not something that we use to patch signals together like the proverbial telephone switchboard, which is a classic example of a patchbay. The term we used in the broadcast industry was either cross cuts, or cross connections when using punch blocks and hard wiring or using configurable patch cables. You typically just don't do that with microphone level connectors (XLR), but rather it's very common to patch a line level signal from a microphone preamp through a processing chain for recording. That's why most of the patchbay work is 1/4" TRS.

Let us know how those DI boxes work out for you.

 

[FirstCoastFm]

Mics through a patch bay: don't do it, unless it is a full XLR patch bay, using XLR-XLR patch cables. Any plug with multiple contacts sliding in and out (i.e. jacks) will create shorts. Not always an issue, but one day you will forget to switch off phantom power before patching..

I was questioning about the microphones through the patchbay only to accomplish what the original thoughts were regarding individual mixes for the musicians. In this case, the vocalist. It seems that the idea of using a patchbay in conjunction to a headphone amp such as the one mentioned earlier would provide the mix and the "more me" audio for the performers. How to include the mic within this monitoring mix into audio chain was my thinking about the patchbay. thanks again for all the iput gentlemen!

 

[Arjan P]

@FirstCoastFm Ah, I see what you mean. But then, aside from the possible issues with shorting phantom power by jack operation, it is not a good idea anyway to split a microphone signal. Simply because there's usually not much signal to work with anyway. Plus, you'd be creating noise or impedance issues with the two devices that split signal would go to (not to mention sending phantom power to the headphone amp). No, headphone amps need line level inputs.

 

[FirstCoastFm]

Even better that you got the gear on a gift card! I told you @Arjan P would have some experience to contribute to the discussion. I concur with him 1,000%. Typically microphone patchbays were simply stage boxes more or less that were mounted in the wall of the studio, and brought the cables up into the console.
Let us know how those DI boxes work out for you.

I have a snake with 8 xlrs and 4 TRS returns. That's what I've been using to bring the vocals to the model 12. I'm also plugging my yamaha keyboard to the console with on of the TRS inputs.. I'm getting some noise, so I've read that a DI would help get rid of it. I have a behringer DI100 that is powered by a battery. So I'm going to try this and see.

Folks, thank you for your patience with me. I'm a 70 years old physician who is changing paths. I have been broadcasting in a radio station for 21 years but never learned the technical aspect of the business. I'm a jazz musician and have a few brain cells leftover from the party days of the '60s and plan on keeping them firing. I thank you for helping me do just that..

 

[-mjk-]

Hey, that's very cool @FirstCoastFm. I used to do national talk myself. I had a show on the (now defunct) Talk American Radio Network in the mid 90s (in Boston), in addition to being the network VP of Engineering. Always a pleasure to meet another professional broadcasters.

That snake sounds like the perfect match for the Model 12. If you continue to have issues with noise, please start a new thread so we can discuss methods used in broadcast and recording studios to eliminate those noises.

 

[-mjk-]

@FirstCoastFm Ah, I see what you mean. But then, aside from the possible issues with shorting phantom power by jack operation, it is not a good idea anyway to split a microphone signal. Simply because there's usually not much signal to work with anyway. Plus, you'd be creating noise or impedance issues with the two devices that split signal would go to (not to mention sending phantom power to the headphone amp). No, headphone amps need line level inputs.

@Arjan P, this is the best executive summary of the main issues in this entire thread.

@FirstCoastFm I've been devoting more thought to this problem. I think your basic premise of giving each performer a general mix + their own input and then balance them in the headphone amp is a good approach. So, if you had a 4 channel mic pre with dual outputs, that might do the job when used with a headphone amp previously described. As far as I can see, the issues are #1: the cost and #2: will the mic preamp send audio out both XLR and 1/4" connectors, simultaneously?

If so, you could connect your mics to the 4 channel preamp, use the XLR to feel the model 12, and then use the 1/4" to feed the headphone amp's Aux input, giving you that balance you need. It's 4 channels so that would be the limit of individual mixes unless you doubled everything.

 

[Mark Richards]

I have 4 musicians who wish to hear themselves on headphones. They are asking for different levels on the instrument tracks.

As Brody mentioned previously, something like the ART HeadAmp4Pro 5-channel Desktop Headphone Amplifier, or this 8 channel (always get more than you think you'll need) Behringer, might get you part way there.
Behringer Headphones Mixing and Distribution Amplifier.
Quick Start Guide (All Languages)

As mj said, to get a completely independent mix for each musician requires a ($$$) CAT-5 network and a component system like this, as well as the ability to interface the Model 12 to the network (all of which is way outside my wheelhouse, but my friend Google is trying to be helpful):
Behringer POWERPLAY P16-M
Behringer P16-D
Behringer P16-I
Quick Start Guide (All Languages)

 

[FirstCoastFm]

@Mark Richards, Thanks... I'm starting to accept the limitations and work within those boundaries.. After all, mine isn't a professional recording studio. Just a small podcast studio with my soon to be online radio station. Have great Holidays... and thanks for the input..

 

[FirstCoastFm]

Hey, that's very cool @FirstCoastFm. I used to do national talk myself. I had a show on the (now defunct) Talk American Radio Network in the mid 90s (in Boston), in addition to being the network VP of Engineering. Always a pleasure to meet another professional broadcasters.

That snake sounds like the perfect match for the Model 12. If you continue to have issues with noise, please start a new thread so we can discuss methods used in broadcast and recording studios to eliminate those noises.

A pleasure meeting you too fellow broadcaster. I have to say this has been one of the most helpful forums and courteous contributors that I've experienced in a long time.

I've got a few things cooking.. Preparing to apply to the FCC for a LPFM license so that I can start an FM station here in my town to give a chance to learn broadcasting, film, editing, podcasting, etc., to low income kids who can't afford to go to a school, or whose grades are not up to par, but have talent, an ambition to move up and to stay out of trouble. I've got almost everything I need for the radio station which will go online first. Should I be granted the FCC permit, then I'll get the transmitter, receivers, antenna, etc. They give you 3 years to build the station and go on the air, so I have time to raise the $$$$ for it..

But, I'm lacking a great deal of knowledge in the topics we've been discussing here and much more.. But I can learn.. Thanks again for the help.

 

[-mjk-]

I just want to point out that the headphone amps that have previously been suggested have 2 inputs, the idea being that everyone get a generic stereo mix, plus their own audio on the aux input so they can "get more of me" in their mix.