DM3200 - need more physical outputs; any suggestions?

[snafu]

Hi there,

currently I'm trying to get my little home studio started. Therefore I'd like to have some more physical outputs, since the DM3200s are, well, quiet limited.

I've got the IF-FW/DMMKII plugged into my mixer yet. Now I want to get in touch with the analog domain: sending signals to external equippment, DIs, and sorts of that.

Since I got the above mentioned card installed, there seems to be only space for one more card, so this decision will have to be a thoughtful one

Of course there is the IF-AN/DM, which would provide me 8 ins and 8 outs.

Question: is there a way to get a few more I/Os?

My demand may seem a bit odd to you, because I found the products page with all the expansion cards listed - but, believe me, I never ever had to worry about other connections than XLR and TSRs, so something like SUB D tells me, well, nothing^^ (other than it's somewhat digital)
The dm3200 has three TDIF connections, do they maybe come in handy here?

Thanks for your replies!

best regards
snafu

 

[cmaffia]

I think Tascman could answer this and it may involve purchasing a MOTU unit if I am correct.

 

[TascMan]

Thanks for returning my glasses Cmaffia, now I can write in the forums again
OP:
Your question is a good one and has been an issue for me as well. The board's analog options feel very limited, especially if you are coming from a, well, analog board.
You do have several options, but they all involve more money. First, to clarify, a D-Sub plug/jack is simply an easy way to run 8 channels of balanced audio, like 8 XLRs. Three wires per channel, means there are 24 wires in the plug. They could be analog, or digital, just depends on the use. But be careful; the wiring for a digital signal is different than the wiring for an analog one. If you were to buy a less expensive Hosa analog D-Sub to D-sub snake to hook up TDIF, it would not work. You will need the Tascam TDIF cables for that.

Looking at the board's analog options, you have
1) 16 lines in (If you are not using any mics) on your M/L channels
2) 4 Assn send and Assn return I/Os
And that's about it.
Solutions?

1) Buy the analog card. The IF-AN/DM card sits in my second slot and I use it all the time. Definitely the best purchase I have made for the DM besides the FW card.

2) Buy a Patch bay. If you find yourself only using a couple of channels of outboard equipment at a time, you can send and return the 4 analog assgn sends and returns to and from the back of a patch bay. Then, add your equipment's ins and outs to the other jacks in the back of the patch bay, and patch between the two as needed. In my case, I have two patch bays, and I keep the analog card I/Os patched in as well as the DMs 16 inserts. That way I can add any outboard equipment when I need it. Otherwise, my mic pres stay normalled to the 8 analog Ins on the analog card. You will need a two D-sub to TRS snakes for this.

3) Use the TDIFs. I think the TDIFs were put on this board with the idea that the user could utilize the MX2424, or other Tascam specific equipment. It does work well for that, but there is another piece of rack mount gear that works well for analog expansion that will convert to TDIF, and that's the MOTU 2408MK3. This piece of gear is getting long in the tooth, and there are probably better options out there, but I have been happy with mine, and it still keeps on ticking. You can find them on eBay and you don't need the PCI computer card interface to make them work. Basic settings can be done on the front panel. It will happily work via TDIF, although these days I believe I have it hooked up via ADAT. But check it out nonetheless. The 2408 provides 8 channels of analog, In and Out, and will convert those channels to digital to send into your DM via 24 channels of TDIF or ADAT. Works great!

 

[cmaffia]

Tascman, are there any sample rate restrictions using option 3?

 

[TascMan]

Why yes C, there are...so glad you asked...
To be able to use the full 24 channel count over TDIF, you will need to be at a sample rate of either 44.1Khz or 48Khz. Any sample rate above that forces the 2408 into SMux mode, where it now takes two TDIF channels to send/receive each 2408 input. This is where using two TDIF cables are really helpful. At the higher sample rates, you will need 16 TDIF channels to send all eight analog inputs into the DM. So, keep that in mind. The 2408 is works this way up to 96Khz. I use 88.2 and have been happy. BTW, the same goes for the ADAT connections.

 

[Gravity Jim]

A used 2408mkIII is a swell choice (before I fell in love with my DM, I had a couple of them). Doesn't matter how old it is... If it works, then it works. The current MOTU 8Pre has 8 mic/line ins with preamps and two ADAT connections, allowing it to provide 8 channels of digital I/O at 96K.

 

[snafu]

TascMan, thank you for your in depth reply! Also thanks to everyone else: I really appreciate your help on this!

Indeed, I'm planning to set up a patchbay as well (got a 96 TTF Neutrik from ebay that seems to be fine - couldn't check it right now). So this will help me with the Mic-/Lines and inserts (no more crawling underneath the desk with that flashlight!).

For the output issue I'm really thinking about the IF-AN/DM, but am a bit nervous about the limitation to 8 I/Os. It's the exact count of I/Os needed, but over the years I got used to think a bit more redundant; I'd like to have at least 4 more I/Os just in case, but wouldn't be unhappy if it were more^^

So here the TDFI comes into play - I got that right? Well, using option 3) say at a SR of 44.1 kHz would provide 24 I/Os; in sum with the IF-AN/DM I'd be going with 32 extra I/Os?

@cmaffia: thanks for that option 3 question!! I didn't think anything of it (the shame, the shame...)! But of course this has to be taken into account!

So once again: thanks to y'all

best regards
Thorsten

 

[TascMan]

24 analog I/Os? No. I realize its a little confusing, but while the 2408 does provide 24 channels of TDIF and ADAT I/O, there are only only 8 analog I/Os.
That being said, you could pair it any other analog to adat digital interface, and then use the 2408 as your TDIF (Tascam Digital InterFace btw) interface with the DM. There's gotta be a million rackmounts out there that have 8 channels of analog and ADAT outs., but very few affordable 16 channel (or more) analog to digital units. The Ferrofish A16 comes to mind, but it's about $1,300.00. There's also the Creamwear A16 ultra.

 

[snafu]

Oh I see! It appears that a combo of option 1) and 3) will do (8 I/O via IF-AN/DM, 8 via TDIF with Motu device) = 16 analog I/O.

To be able to use the full 24 channel count over TDIF, you will need to be at a sample rate of either 44.1Khz or 48Khz.

So this means 8 I/O analog (I can see it has pairs of 8 TRS on the backside), so 16 channels would be digital? Or digital 24 extra?

I reviewed a description from a german side where it says:

• 8 I/O 24bit/96kHz DA/AD [so this would be the analog part]
  
• 2 analog main outs
  
• 3 x ADAT inputs for 24 I/O
• 3 x TDIF inputs for 24 I/O
• 2 digital Stereo-SPDIF I/O

Well, so points 3&4 mean the digital domain, where another device would be involved?

confused greetings ;-)

 

[Arjan P]

I reviewed a description from a german side where it says:

• 8 I/O 24bit/96kHz DA/AD [so this would be the analog part]
  
• 2 analog main outs
  
• 3 x ADAT inputs for 24 I/O
• 3 x TDIF inputs for 24 I/O
• 2 digital Stereo-SPDIF I/O

Well, so points 3&4 mean the digital domain, where another device would be involved?

Exactly, and that's where the 'problem' may be: plenty of boxes that convert 8 channels of ADAT or TDIF to/from analog. Not so many that do the same for 16 channels, and even less or none that do 24.

If you really need 8 more analog I/O and the rest is 'extra', I would go for an external unit that can give you another 8 channels I/O at 24/96 so yo don't limit yourself there. Like the Motu unit mentioned earlier..

 

[TascMan]

Yes exactly. 8 analog I/O, 24 TDIF and ADAT I/O for use with other digital devices. You could use it with the new MOTU 16a. That has 16 analog I/O and converts to digital with ADAT outputs, but costs about 1500.00. But you would have 24 analog I/Os.
If 16 analog I/O is all you need, use the 2408 for 8 and an analog card for 8 more. That how I have mine setup. I have never needed more. Or even a separate audio interface. I have a Focusrite Scarlett 18i20 that I really like that I use for mobile stuff that has 8 Mic/Line ins and outs with ADAT. There are plenty out there to choose from. You can always add to your rig later as needed.
There really seems to be a hole in the audio interface world for affordable 16 channel line level converters. Building one with TDIF/Thunderbolt/ADAT would be amazing. Hint Hint Tascam! All of Tascam's multichannel converters are mic preamps only, without any Neutrik combo XLR inputs. I think that was a mistake, IMHO.

 

[TascMan]

oops, I posted over you Arjan...sorry. Snafu...everything he said.

 

[snafu]

Well, gentlemen it appears my question has been answered to my entire satisfaction ;-) Thank you very, very much!
I've seen some motus at ebay and will also get the IF-AN/DW!

best regards
Thorsten

 

[jamsire]

Outputs - to WHERE??

Times like these I feel bad for DM3200 owners. But, I hope everything adds up to making great music - which all I ever care about.

With regards to your patchbay build, please consider adding these marvelous additions to your setup should you ever get the AN/DM card - The Planet Waves Modular Snake System.

 

[TascMan]

Outputs - to WHERE??

Times like these I feel bad for DM3200 owners. But, I hope everything adds up to making great music - which all I ever care about.

To external devices. Like 8 channel tape decks, buss compressors, separate headphone mixes, extra monitor sends for the speakers in the other room, sending individual tracks to external effects like Lexicon reverbs or your prized Dimension one chorus, the LA2A you spent money on, or when you need to run your mix though any piece of gear that you feel adds to the mix that just isn't a plugin or something inside the DM.
You don't need to feel bad for us 3200 owners. I was able to work around your fat channel.

 

[jamsire]

To external devices. Like 8 channel tape decks, buss compressors, separate headphone mixes, extra monitor sends for the speakers in the other room, sending individual tracks to external effects like Lexicon reverbs or your prized Dimension one chorus, the LA2A you spent money on, or when you need to run your mix though any piece of gear that you feel adds to the mix that just isn't a plugin or something inside the DM.
You don't need to feel bad for us 3200 owners. I was able to work around your fat channel.

Yeah ok.

I run everything >>into<< the board, my setup requires thinking in front of me in a funny way now that I see what you wrote. But I have run my trusty 388-8 Studio 8 through the board for tape transfers. Glorious. The Fat Channel is quite sexy - me no use plugins much for anything - even synths.

 

[snafu]

Outputs - to WHERE??

[...]separate headphone mixes[...]

ever been in a room with a guitarist arguing with his drummer who should be louder in the headphone mix? Ever seen that bassist standing in the corner sheding tears, 'cause no one realized he even wasn't in the mix? Believe me: alone for the possibility to tweak each ones monitor mix to taste it's worth it ;-) As I mentioned earlier: there is a patchbay, and I won't forget my lunchbox with its devices.

 

[captdan]

Seems to me that headset mixes can be done simply and to everybody's satisfaction. And with just a single stereo output to a multibox.

Next, every performer's individual channel is assigned to the DM's Bus Layer for separate level control, then fed to the chosen stereo Auxiliary ouput module - say 33/34 (El Defaulto), or any of the other available modules.

Then, when the bonafone operator in his iso chamber starts to whine, you simply raise the poor chap's Bus Lever and keep your hand made iso box dry and tidy.

Or something along those lines.

CaptDan

 

[snafu]

CaptDan It's been a while. Well, of course you're right. But 1.) this was just one example amongst many others, and 2.)

Seems to me that headset mixes can be done simply

that's a wisdome you and I may share, but to be honest: since I got that 8 out headphones amp where everyone in the recording room can tweak his levels to his likes, it kinda relaxes me to read mimics when everyone first raises knobs to ten, learns a lesson, and than furtively turns 3/4 of the way back :-D This is so entertaining, I wouldn't wanna miss it :-D

 

[captdan]

I see your point.

If you want to put some additional entertainment into the job, invite the gtr player into a playback. Pick a button on your console that isn't doing anything. As the track is playing, push the button "In" and "Out," asking the artist which EQ curve he prefers.

As he's trying to make up his mind, try very hard to keep from laughing.

CaptDan