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DM 4800 and External Word Clock for better sound?

Is there a sonic difference between mixing in the box (ITB) and out of the box (OTB)? Only to the extent any element is added in the DM. If you EQ a channel, you've altered something; if you add compression - same deal. However, if you send signal digitally into the board, keep everything at unity gain, adding or subtracting nothing in between - it's absolutely identical. No conversion; it's all 0's and 1's.

Using the DM only as a mixing surface is to forfeit some serious mixing and routing power. However, some people prefer to keep it all in the computer. The only advantage I can see is, the track limitation is determined by the application not the interface - ie- the DM firewire system maxes out at 32x32. Other than that - once it's in the digital domain, as Jim said - you're dealing with 'natives' not immigrants. :)

CaptDan
 
Is there a difference in sound between a Plugin EQ and a Firmware EQ (DM4800). Does one have an advantage over the other (less artifacts, better sound, etc). It seems like it would be easier on the CPU if you used the DM Effects over plugins and are there some effects on the DM you find exceptional or some one should stay away from?
 
Tough question to answer. DSP isn't created equal. Perhaps that's a good thing.

The differential isn't about 'better sound.' It's about sonic 'character,' and solving issues. Many people - myself included - have some favorite plugins we like to use for particular things. I like to add some plugins for my bass tracks, but I generally enhance this with DM EQ and compression as well. It depends on the mix. Same goes for gtr tracks, keys - and percussion. Again, it's a function of the material, what's needed, etc.

There are quite a few useful DM efx; the 'verbs are quite good. The tap delays - excellent, IMO. The parametric EQ is fantastic; vast power available. The dynamics are excellent too, Not a fan of the amp sims; generally speaking they tend to suck in most apps, with a few exceptions. But, as you imply, having the ability to sculpt and control the mix with DM options definately saves DAW CPU power. Overall, the best thing is the advantage of having a sizeable tool chest of options - in the DAW and within the mix console.

CaptDan
 
Cool! Thanks for that knowledge! My plan is use the DM 4800 for mostly virtual instruments and use an Apogee Quartet is an "All in one" converter/Mic Pre solution for the critical A/D (vocals, live instruments, etc) via ADAT. It's either that or get a dedicated preamp and use the DM 4800 converters. The Advantage of the Apogee is it's modular. If I had to go mobile, it would fit that need.
 
Just as an aside.....
I like the comps and EQ in the DM.
Comps are pretty transparent.
EQ is accurate and does not offer character.
Be careful with the EQ...
Changes look small in the little window, but it really works.
 
Another advantage of mixing OTB is that you can use (analog) external effects in the mix. I always have a couple of natives travelling and working abroad, to return to the DM nation with their visas in order. Watch out though for the illegal immigrants entering your perfect OTB mix; Windows sounds coming in unasked, live mics still picking up room noise etc.. 8-)
 
waterstrum said:
Just as an aside.....
I like the comps and EQ in the DM.
Comps are pretty transparent.
EQ is accurate and does not offer character.
Be careful with the EQ...
Changes look small in the little window, but it really works.
Click to expand...

True. Besides being 'musical,' the EQs are very helpful for surgical uses - ie - high pass filtering, shelving, and narrow-Q 'bumps.' Just a few DB boosts in certain places can have major effects on the mix. I've created a sizeable collection of favorites in my library; I find myself using certain ones repeatedly.

CaptDan
 
That sounds good. How long did it take you to master the internal effects and what, exactly, does the fat channel do? I thought it was used to adjust the effect parameters, but I haven't see a tutorial yet that used those knobs.
 
Didn't take me more than a day to get my head around the efx. But I also had ten years of experience on a previous digital mixer, so it wasn't traveling to a foreign country. :) I use a 3200 which doesn't have the Fat Channel. But - from what I gather - it's a means to adjust global parameters from a single source.

I'm curious, are you using a DM4800 currently, planning to purchase one, or have you already bought it and haven't set it up yet? I ask this because - generally - new users' questions are of a different nature. More along the lines of routing problems, etc.

CaptDan
 
My 4800 shipped today :-). I've had a DM 3200 before and MAN was the learning curve something for me. I sold it to get a DM 4800 & in the middle of the process, I went through some tough times and had to sell all my gear. I got a lot to learn and my first goal is to simply use it as a sound card and control surface until I get the routing down. I believe I can route my DAW channels into the DM-4800 with no problem. Where I left off was digitally routing the mix back into the DAW. Hmm, maybe I can dig up a video on that?
 
Back on topic for a second. Thinking the clock in my Apogee Rosetta 200 would be superior to the internal DM3200 clock, I had slaved the DM3200 to the Rosetta for about a year. Shortly after the mixer would have occasional clock glitches and the Rosetta sometimes would just power down for no apparent reason! Not only that, there actually was a detectable difference in sound and the Tascam sounded better to my ears! Today I use the Rosetta as my DA for monitoring, mixing and mastering. It really shines there and finally I can easily make all my mixes sound consistent regardless of who and where it's played. Oh and the Rosetta never powers down anymore on its own. Stick to the internal clock!
 
In my setup I have multiple digital devices and ran into many issues (pops, clicks) trying to daisy chain the work clock devices together, which is why I went with an external clock in the first place.
Side by side comparison, all running Apogee WC cable, (and all the cable is the same length ; ) ) I still like the way everything sounds clocked to my Antelope clock compared to the DM clocked to itself.
I have been handed my head for making this comment on the previous forum but I can stand in my control room and tell the difference in stereo image and depth. It's not night and day, very subtle but I can tell the difference.
I read all the articles and heard all the back and forth about it, but basically until you try clocking the DM to something else in your own environment, you really have no idea if it is better or not.
Some will probably prefer the sound of the DM clocked to itself, in my opinion and in my room, locked to the Antelope clock just sounds better.
 
I guess I will find out later on. I decided to not buy a dedicated clock. But, If I feel the sound of the DM 4800 is lacking, I will probably get a converter or interface with a really good clock in it.
 
The sound of the clock of the DM is not lacking by any means. Which the way I understand it would mean that the clock is very well designed, built and stable.
I did a shootout and it was my second choice behind the Antelope. But that was a personal preference.

When I tried making the DM a slave to other digital sources you could instantly tell the difference and not in a good way. I tried making a Focusrite OctaPre mkII the master, a Lucid GenX192 and a few other pieces of gear and the DM as the master was far superior to any of those others as the master source.....except for the Antelope.
The Antelope added a little more depth to the stereo field. As I said it was subtle, but when I brought my wife into the control room who is just an average listener of music, she even noticed, what she referenced as added depth.
I'm not saying one or the other is bad, to me it's just a preference.

If you have the option to try a few different clocks some day I would say go for it. If you are happy with the sound you are getting, I would say forget it then and just make some music!
The only reason I even started messing with an external clock was because the Word Clock daisy chain method just wasn't working for me so being a IT guy I went for the star topology 'networking' method. And the reason I think the daisy chain method wasn't working for me could be attributed to a few pieces of digital gear that had less then stellar internal clocks to begin with. So the WC signal went in and got all F'ed up then got passed to the next device and the problem got worse down the chain.
If the clock in the piece is poorly designed and executed then clocking it to the most stable WC in the world won't help it!!
Thankfully the DM's seems to built rock solid!
 
Everyone has a right to expect the most from their gear. If somebody runs a series of devices requiring an outboard clock, so be it. Maybe another user's setup is simpler and doesn't demand the same approach.

It's similar to the 96kz vs 44.1 discussion; some people claim they can hear a difference; others disagree. I feel that - in my setup - I CAN determine a small quality uptick at higher S/Rs; it quantifies in better bass and imaging characteristics. Probably, in some way, similar to what 29Counts hears in his Antelope clock. It's not night and day, in your face, unquestionably different - but it's there anyway - or at least we think it is.

It doesn't really matter. What matters is that we're always trying to achieve the best we can from what we have.

YMMV

CaptDan
 
Hey gents,

I know this thread is a tad old but it will save me posting a new topic if someone can answer my question related to DM4800 clocking. It's pretty simple, I need to set the internal clock of the the DM to master clock source. How do I do this? I have checked the manual and it says you can change the DM to be the master clock source however it doesn't say where to do this. It shows all the options like internal, and all the card options and sample rates etc, but I can't fine the "master" switch as it were.

Basically I need to change so I can sync my UA4710d to the DM as we are getting very small pops and clicks from the adat tracks that come from the UA. Not a major as they are really not noticeable, but they come to light at mastering.

Any thoughts?

Cheers.
 
Like you say, it is pretty simple: when set to 'Internal', the DM is the master clock..
 
Ah, awesome. Thanks. I thought that might be the case but I was not sure. Usually you can set something to master, I didn't realise the internal was master by default. Now all I need to get is some BNC cable @ 75Ohms. Harder to find her in NZ.

Does anyone use Logic X? I assume logic will lock into the clock of the DM or do I need to set this up? Thought I would check as "assumptions can be the mother of all screw ups"
 
The DAW software will automatically sync but you do have to tell your computer interface (if it's not the IF-FW) what to clock to. So if the DM is the master and you have an apogee, make the apogee the "slave" via WC.
 
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