Channels in Remote Layer

[Peter Batah]

Hello all.

I will try to explain myself as best as I can. As some of you already know, I recently purchased a DM-3200. I visit this wonderful forum daily and am always eager to learn. And, with each visit I discover something new thanks in large part to the very knowledgeable folks that frequent this forum.

I decided to dive into the Remote Layer. I have read this document which was very helpful

http://www.tascamforums.com/threads/doc-dm4800-fader-control-surface-setup-with-cubase.49/
I have watched the @jamsire videos on Cubase integration as well. I am not there yet though.

Here is what I have done so far and I will follow up with my question.

I am running Cubase 5.x on a PC. The PC is hooked up to the DM by both a USB and Firewire cable.

1) To keep things simple I have two audio tracks GTR-L and GTR-R
2) Both playback on DM channels 17 & 18 panned hard left and right

http://imgur.com/a/ZLCxX

3) I have transport working so I hit play and audio is played back on first two faders when in Remote Layer

If my stereo fader is up both tracks play as desired with fader 1 panned left and fader 2 panned right
If I bring my stereo fader down to zero audio track 2 (GTR-R) continues to play but GTR-L on fader 1 goes silent

I have spent some of today trying to figure this one out. Any assistance will be greatly appreciated. Thank you. Peter

 

[skier]

Hey Peter,

One of the things that "bit" me many times when I first started using my mixer were problems similar to yours. In fact, though rare, I will still get "bitten" by this once in a great while. Namely, the routing capabilities of the mixer are so extensive, that I will sometimes have more than one path sending audio to the same destination. In your case, I suspect that you have a second (perhaps even more) path(s) sending (GTR-R) to your output and bypassing the fader as well as going through it. Another way you sometimes can sense this is that the left or right channel is louder than the other at the mixer output, but very close to the same level at its input. This often means that the louder channel has one or more additional paths.

To find the problem, first save your current configuration to the Compact Flash card (or to your computer using TMC) so you can back to where you're starting. Then, check ALL your routing screens thoroughly and either mute or remove routings that you're not using. It's very easy to have one source go to multiple locations, and we need and want that capability. But it also makes it very easy to inadvertently add one or more paths than we need.

Another way this happens is if using a prior configuration for a new project; a routing needed for the prior project (but not for this new one) can cause us confusion when the extra signal paths cause unexpected problems, such as you've experienced. Some other unexpected problems can be feedback, an effect (e.g. reverb) on a path we thought is dry, unintended EQ or compression, etc., etc., etc.

Hope this helps.

 

[Peter Batah]

Good day @skier Let me start off by saying that I really appreciate your input. I didn't respond right away because I wanted to go through my routing as you suggested. And I do realize that
routing seems to be the heart and soul of this mixer. Sounds crazy, I know but I have been at this all day, literally.

When I set GTR-L and GTR-R to busses M3 and M4 respectively in Cubase this is what happens:

In layer 17-32 I can control / hear both track on channels 19+20
In remote layer I can control / hear both tracks on channels 1+2 (first two faders) and do NOT have to raise the stereo fader. In other words, it's at 0db

For some reason if I set GTR-L to bus M1 (in/out) I hear nothing. I'm stumped.

I have screenshots of my routing configuration if that would help. Thanks again for your time and assistance.

Please see this screenshot of my two track setup in Cubase

http://imgur.com/a/cSEpv

 

[cmaffia]

What does your VST connection screens look like for both in and outs?
Here's a simple in the box configuration to start with. Route your monitoring of Cubase to the DM in Cubases VST connections output tab (I'd use FW 31/32). Make sure 31/32 on the DM is going to the STEREO buss (hit the stereo button on each). Your VST inputs should be 1-32 mono FW channels. Now when you record a track in Cubase, in the inspector choose your source input as it corresponds to the channel,your instrument is plugged into on the DM and on the output, make sure it's going to the stereo out (31/32).

 

[Peter Batah]

@cmaffia Thank you for chiming in Charlie. I really appreciate it. I have been taking plenty of screeshots if there is anything in particular that you want to see.

http://imgur.com/a/Y3dBY

http://imgur.com/a/R8tao

 

[Peter Batah]

@cmaffia Is this what you were referring to when you mention
n the inspector choose your source input as it corresponds to the channel,your instrument is plugged into on the DM and on the output, make sure it's going to the stereo out (31/32).

http://imgur.com/a/evx10

 

[cmaffia]

Do you intend to mix in the box meaning your going to use the DM to monitor the Cubase mixer by (via stereo pair using two FW channels) or do you want to route tracks or stems from Cubase and mix through the console.

 

[Peter Batah]

For the time being I was thinking of mixing on the console. At least that is what I thought I was attempting. Please be patient with me. It's been some 30 years so getting back on the bicycle isn't going to be that simple for me.

What I have been doing up to now was to
- create two audio tracks in Cubase
- import two pre-recorded audio tracks unto thos two Cubase tracks
- I seem to be monitoring those two tracks on my DM channels 17-18
- then I decide to try my hand at the remote layer.
- that is when I run into the issue with channel #1 going silent if I don't raise the stereo fader in remote layer.

Perhaps I am not using the proper jargon or just not explaining myself properly. And, I wouldn't blame you for feeling frustrated at my ignorance. Sorry about that!

 

[cmaffia]

Here's some more info from Steinberg's forum with many comments from our forum users.
https://www.steinberg.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21310

Here's a great explanation of Tascman's entire setup and workflow. Worth reading to understand multiple tracking and mixing processes
http://www.tascamforums.com/threads/me-and-my-routing-fwiw.919/
http://www.tascamforums.com/threads/new-dm-3200.2900/

 

[cmaffia]

Remote layer is the control surface for the DAW's mixer. You're wanting to mix through the console. You need to route your Cubase channels to the DM. Completely different setup which I believe is documented somewhere on the forum (links sent above).

 

[Peter Batah]

By all accounts I seem to have the remote layer functioning. This thanks to all the reading that I have been doing. My two cubase audio tracks are routed back to DM channels 17 and 18. But, if I set cubase track #1 to buss 1 in and out I won't hear it in the remote layer unless I raise the level of my stereo fader of the remote layer. I can however, hear cubase track #2 just fine in the DM's remote layer. Even when the stereo fader is down at 0db. If instead I set cubase track #1 to buss 3 in and out then I can hear it just fine at the DM in remote layer.

Maybe I should put a video together. Problem is I can an only monitor via headphones at the moment. Thanks again for your time and help Charlie. I will continue to read and against questions. Have a great evening. Peter

 

[skier]

Peter, after reading your posts, I'm not convinced that the distinction of the Remote Layer is clear in your mind — please forgive my conclusion if I'm wrong.

What cmaffia is explaining is that the Remote Layer mode is for controlling your DAW. When you select the Remote Layer, the faders, mute buttons, solo buttons, etc., on your DM control the faders, mute buttons, solo buttons on the DAW — that's the purpose of the Remote Layer — it turns the DM into a control surface so you can control your DAW with physical controls rather than the computer's mouse. If you want to use the DM as a mixer, then you select the other modes so you can control channels 1 - 24, 25 - 48, 49 -64, your bus levels, the aux sends, etc. You can still use the DM for routing signals and converting protocols while in Remote Layer mode, but the controls are controlling the DAW software itself, in your case, Cubase.

Does that make sense?

 

[cmaffia]

You need to decide first how you will mix and monitor tracks using Cubase. Are you going to mix using the Cubase mixer and monitor its stereo master fader using 2 FW channels to the DM (that's where the remote layer is best used if you want control surface functionality) or do you plan on routing the individual tracks and/or stems from Cubase to the DM and mix there. I believe you're not setup correctly for either scenario in Cubase or the DM.

 

[Peter Batah]

Peter, after reading your posts, I'm not convinced that the distinction of the Remote Layer is clear in your mind — please forgive my conclusion if I'm wrong.

What cmaffia is explaining is that the Remote Layer mode is for controlling your DAW. When you select the Remote Layer, the faders, mute buttons, solo buttons, etc., on your DM control the faders, mute buttons, solo buttons on the DAW — that's the purpose of the Remote Layer — it turns the DM into a control surface so you can control your DAW with physical controls rather than the computer's mouse. If you want to use the DM as a mixer, then you select the other modes so you can control channels 1 - 24, 25 - 48, 49 -64, your bus levels, the aux sends, etc. You can still use the DM for routing signals and converting protocols while in Remote Layer mode, but the controls are controlling the DAW software itself, in your case, Cubase.

Does that make sense?

Yes I am aware of how the Remote layer is used to control faders, panning, etc. at the DAW. And, that is exactly what I am able to do. I was using a JLCooper CS-102 with another DAW a few years back. Except, for the issue that I am experiencing when attempting to playback the audio that comes back into the DM. Specifically, audio track #1. I am also able to do fader banking. I get all of that.

>> You can still use the DM for routing signals and converting protocols while in Remote Layer >>mode, but the controls are controlling the DAW software itself, in your case, Cubase.

And, that is exactly what is happening!

Thank you @skier I am probably not explaining myself properly.

 

[Peter Batah]

Remote layer is the control surface for the DAW's mixer. You're wanting to mix through the console. You need to route your Cubase channels to the DM. Completely different setup which I believe is documented somewhere on the forum (links sent above).

Thank you for those links Charlie. I had printed TascMan's post a week or two ago and is how I am setup at the moment. The first link was very interesting as well.

 

[cmaffia]

Peter, I'm still not hearing you state clearly which method of mixing you intend to do. Both scenarios require completely different configurations on both the DM and Cubase side and your screen shots of the VST connections don't necessarily match either scenario.

 

[Peter Batah]

Because I am like a child taking his/her first steps, I cannot say with certainty exactly how I will end up working. Sounds crazy I know and I apologize if I have taken up too much of your time. And that goes for everyone else who stepped up to assist me. I may very well use the DAW like an old fashioned tape machine. If, of course I become comfortable enough using the DM. Which is something that I plan on doing regardless of what workflow I choose. This is a real stretch from the Soundcraft Series x and the 4 track Akai tape machine that I used back in 1977-79. Oh well, time to put these tired old bones to bed. I can't tell me how much your help means to me. Have a wonderful evening. Peter

 

[cmaffia]

Until you choose a mixing workflow you won't be able to move forward as each method has a specific configuration for both the DM and Cubase...I suggest mixing in the box to start which basically sub-mixes the Cubase's mix-console to 2 channels on the DM to monitor.

http://www.tascamforums.com/threads/detailed-cubase-instructions.4283/

NOTE - On page 15 where it says 'Repeat last step for the Outputs Busses".. Don't. Just create 1 stereo output using FW outputs 31 and 32 and make sure DM's channel 31 and 32 are configured to receive these 2 FW channels. On the DM, make sure you select the STEREO button on each to hear. This method will help you understand the Remote Layer and how to route audio to and from the DM & Cubase with minimal confusion.

The other (more complex) option is to route your Cubase tracks (or stems) through FW back to the console and mix traditionally. You will be able to utilize all the plugins used in Cubase AND the DM on-board EQ and EFFECTS simultaneously. The remote layer doesn't allow this. If you choose this workflow, you will have to make some routing decisions and it may vary from project to project. You will need to configure input layers 1-16 & 17-32 to receive audio from Cubase using Slot-1 (your FW card). This will route selected Cubase tracks into the board. If you look at the INPUT tab on the routing page where you probably have M/L set for each channel, you'll notice a section underneath (RTN) that you're not using. What most do is configure those as specific Slot-1 tracks from the DAW. When you're ready to mix, you'd flip the console's inputs from M/L to FW using the SOURCE INVERT selection. Note that the output tab of your VST connection in Cubase must correlate with the DM input Slot-1 routing. This will require creating Mono and Stereo FW outputs in VST Connections depending on your project. Make sure that for each channel receiving audio from Cubase, you are selecting the STEREO button to hear them. You will also need to send the DM's Stereo output to Cubase so you can record your mix. Use 2 FW channels (typically 31/32) to output the DM's stereo mix to Cubase or any 2 track editing/mastering software of your choice.



Hope that all made some sort of sense!

 

[skier]

@cmaffia - Great explanation!

 

[skier]

Because I am like a child taking his/her first steps, I cannot say with certainty exactly how I will end up working. Sounds crazy I know and I apologize if I have taken up too much of your time. And that goes for everyone else who stepped up to assist me. I may very well use the DAW like an old fashioned tape machine. If, of course I become comfortable enough using the DM. Which is something that I plan on doing regardless of what workflow I choose. This is a real stretch from the Soundcraft Series x and the 4 track Akai tape machine that I used back in 1977-79. Oh well, time to put these tired old bones to bed. I can't tell me how much your help means to me. Have a wonderful evening. Peter

Don't worry about apologizing, we all want you to succeed. But I think cmaffia is right in suggesting that you first start by mixing in the box and getting that working properly. It's the simplest method and getting the mixer routing straight with that gives you a more solid foundation with which to later branch out into something more complex, such as bringing the separate channels out into the DM so you can use it to mix.