Automated Fader Sluggish Response

[GaryJackson]

Hey Guys,

Have any of you had slow fader or sluggish fader response. I did some automation recently (like a fun demo etc) and I found that the faders were very inconsistent. The automation was programmed via Logic X and its smooth however when on the DM its jittery to be honest.

Has anyone serviced the fader tracks and if so how would you do this? I don't have any techs here in New Zealand who will service the DM and moving it/shipping it here in this country costs a minor fortune. I just wonder is there an easy solution, its not like I use major automation moves a lot however it would be nice to know its all smooth even if I was doing that.

Or could this be a Logic / communication issue? I have no way to test this as I don't have PT or other programs bar Cubase which I don't know how to use anyway. I should try and upload the video at some point.

Thanks guys.

 

[Gravity Jim]

It sounds like what you're saying is that you've created all the automation ITB using Logic, and want the DM to move it's faders to reflect what Logic is doing internally, and to do that smoothly and without latency.

I don't think that's going to happen. And if all your automation is programmed in Logic, there is no need for the DM's faders to move at all: they're not doing anything.

Apologies if I misread your post.

 

[GaryJackson]

Hey Gravity, hows things...

I do most of my automation on Logic X, its just easier on the workflow of our projects etc. The latency should be under about .5 sec at the most as my round trip latency is about .6 sec. Plus I have seen snapper faders on other DM consoles. (Such as on youtube, mine just don't seem to be as snappy) Even when applying a gentle volume reduction it seems to be jittery.

I use the remote layer as a control layer and often draw in my automation on projects as I go, sometimes I program it - generally old school and I like to have a mix of physical and ITB mixing.

The faders are definitely sluggish and inconsistent.

 

[GaryJackson]

Doesn't anyone have any tips on cleaning motorised faders?

 

[cmaffia]

Have you tried DeOxit Fader Lube? I used it on my previous console. I would just spray in the track without having to disassemble. Never had issues with my DM faders so I can't comment on that specifically.

Here's a photo of a fader bank from a DM4800 to give you some idea what's in there.

 

[GaryJackson]

Awesome, thanks for the info.

I wonder where I can get some of that stuff. I will look on Amazon or Ebay, Im sure I can find some there. I doubt I will find it here in NZ.

Cheers for that, it sounds rather easy to do.

 

[Arjan P]

If you do a search on this forum for 'DeOxit', you should come across some older threads where this was discussed, but also some equivalents of it (in Europe for instance).

 

[Gravity Jim]

Do the faders feel ragged or sticky when you move them by hand? If not, no lubrication is going to help.

I did a poor job of explaining what I was saying up above: if all of your automation is programmed in Logic and NOT in the DM's own automation software, then what you are seeing when the sequence plays back is the DM's faders being animated by MIDI data coming from Logic. You are probably not going to see smooth operation of the faders in this case... that data is low priority and is subject to delays and latency.

The truth is, the faders don't need to move at all in this scenario, because all of the automation is happening inside your computer, or ITB (In The Box). The DM isn't doing anything at all to the audio except playing it back.

So you can try it, but unless the faders feel rough when you operate them, then greasing them up isn't going to help.

 

[cmaffia]

Good point Jim.

 

[Arjan P]

The truth is, the faders don't need to move at all in this scenario, because all of the automation is happening inside your computer, or ITB (In The Box). The DM isn't doing anything at all to the audio except playing it back.

Though this is in itself true, it's no excuse for the faders not running smoothly on the remote layer. I use both DM and Cubase automation, and usually don't have a reason to watch the faders from Cubase moving. Except when making real time adjustments to this automation, or creating new hands on ITB automation on a neighbouring track/ remote layer channel.

If it's not a physical fader problem on the original issue (to be improved perhaps with DeOxit), I would look into a possible MIDI issue - interference maybe with another MIDI source or receiver..

 

[waterstrum]

FWIW, I'm running DP with my DM and using the remote layer for fader control and other functions.
Faders respond quickly and smoothly in playback.
Also smooth for input.
The hardware should be able to do what you are asking.

 

[GaryJackson]

The faders do feel a little rough I must say. Not really bad but like they are running against the back of the board or something, they are ok but they dont feel that smooth. Jim I know what your saying about the automation, but surely the midi data should not be so jittery?... If it is a data issue, it is like its arriving in clumps where the fader speeds up then slows down on an automation move thats programmed to be smooth.

I will clean them first then I will know I guess. The trick is finding some of the lube. I cant air freight a can of it due to regulations of air freight so I have to try and source some here in NZ that has been shipped via boat. I will find some, it will just take a bit of digging.

 

[goodflow]

I did a poor job of explaining what I was saying up above: if all of your automation is programmed in Logic and NOT in the DM's own automation software, then what you are seeing when the sequence plays back is the DM's faders being animated by MIDI data coming from Logic. You are probably not going to see smooth operation of the faders in this case... that data is low priority and is subject to delays and latency.

Huh? I've worked with my DM and ITB automation 30+ hours a week over the last several years and the remote layer of the DM faders has always smoothly and accurately reflected the automation that was occurring in my DAW (Cubase). Is there something different about Logic that should prevent this from happening?

The truth is, the faders don't need to move at all in this scenario, because all of the automation is happening inside your computer, or ITB (In The Box). The DM isn't doing anything at all to the audio except playing it back.

Again, huh? Are you suggesting that there is no need for $x,000 hardware controller to accurately reflect the software it is controlling and interacting with? Please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds like you are neglecting that this is a major part of many peoples' workflow. Interacting with ITB automation in real time is one of the primary uses of the two DMs I work on (in 2 different studios, by multiple engineers), and in my opinion is one of the greater and more underappreciated strengths of the board (especially when you consider the noisy and expensive and far less versatile alternatives- but that's another conversation entirely). Sluggishness like GaryJackson describes in his first post is not at all normal, and would be very interruptive to the aforementioned workflow.

I've experienced some hiccups here and there, especially back in the Windows 7 realm (which I haven't visited in a few years now, am exclusively OS X), but the most common culprit behind glitchy faders has been dust in the fader tracks. I have one fader that has been more troublesome than the others (channel 17), and some compressed air followed by a burst of DeOxit and overnight nap has always brought it back to normal. Good air filtration and covering the DM when not in use are also probably good practices for maintaining fader health.

 

[goodflow]

Wanted to add, after a burst of DeOxit in the problematic fader channel (with the DM switched off, of course), I like to run the fader back and forth several times before leaving it alone to evaporate.

 

[GaryJackson]

The trouble is getting DeOxit her in NZ, seems I cant find any just yet, cant ship it because of regulations re shipping aerosols. Im sure I will find it somewhere and post the results when I do. I will try to make a video of what its doing, hopefully when I get a bit more time this week.

 

[Arjan P]

Did you try looking for the European equivalent? It's called 'Tuner 600' from Kontakt Chemie.

 

[waterstrum]

I'm not sure that cleaning the faders will solve your problem.
I really doubt that the physical surfaces are at fault.
It would be very odd for all of them to degrade simultaneously.

Just for a test...
When you move one fader in Logic, does the corresponding fader in the remote layer of the DM move smoothly?
In my case, all of the faders on the DM move smoothly when I move them in my DAW.
(and vice versa)

I'm suspecting some kind of communications breakdown.
A video would be helpful if you can post it.

 

[cmaffia]

The faders do feel a little rough I must say. Not really bad but like they are running against the back of the board or something, they are ok but they dont feel that smooth. .

Forget about automation for a minute. You say the faders feel rough. I would use fader lube first then test. For comparison, my faders feel like blades on ice...really smooth.

 

[goodflow]

Are the faders smooth when you switch between layers, GaryJackson?

 

[GaryJackson]

Sorry for my late reply all, been tied up last little while. The faders seem to be smooth when switching layers but they move quite quickly so its hard to tell. When I move the fader in the DAW or automate a slow volume move down its not that smooth. Seems to be slow then speed up, kind of lag then it races to catch up to the automation curve. Perhaps its is a communication issue? its certainly possible. The faders feel ok to the touch and its not really really bad, so I dunno...

If it is communication issue and none of you seem to have the problem yourselves, does anyone know how I would test this theory or check the USB communication?