New DP24sd failing during recording

[-mjk-]

Randy, I hope you never have an issue. Being on the list is at least defensible if there is an issue.

 

[Randy Turner]

Not sure I understand you. My SD is indeed on the list.

 

[Sam Trenholme]

I have used 32GB SanDisk Extreme (the older 45mb/second model) and 32GB SanDisk Extreme Pro (the slightly older 95mb/second model without “V30” on the card) without problem. We’re talking recording entire albums, including songs using all 32 tracks at 24-bit/44.1 khz.

Keep in mind that 32 tracks * 24 bit at 44.1khz is only 4.3mb/second of data. Since we can only write 8 tracks at a time, the maximum write rate is 1.1mb/second. The extreme was specced as 10mb/second write, 45mb/second read. The Extreme Pros are 30mb/second write, 95mb/second read. While the cards are not specced for simultaneous write + read, the fact that modern SDHC cards are specced to be 10 to 30 times faster than any possible read/write operation on the DPs means the chance of the card generating an issue is low.

Technology has moved on from the days when even a hi-end TDK SA-X chrome tape would have drop out issues on a 4-track Portastudio. Every time we have seen an issue with the DPs which we suspected was caused by the SD cards (anyone else remember the early 2015 pop/clicks at 24-bit issues Tascam fixed with a firmware update?), the problem turned out to be elsewhere (again, as long as people use decent SD cards, such as San Disk Extreme/Extreme Pro or Lexar 1000x professional cards; there are still $5 “class 4” or “class 10” cards which should be avoided; also, the DPs do not work with 64/128/256 gb SDXC cards).

 

[-mjk-]

Not sure I understand you. My SD is indeed on the list.

Yes, that's what I meant Randy. Sorry for the confusion. I mean that if your card is on the list and you're experiencing problems, it's an actual issue, a "defensible" one. Some of these threads have posts from users experiencing issues while not using an approved card, and yet blame the machine, questioning reliability, etc..

 

[-mjk-]

@Sam Trenholme I hear you. What you say makes sense. So, after I did go the store and buy a SanDisk Extreme (not in the list) with the fastest read/write that I could get in a 32G size, nobody was more surprised that I to find that I was experiencing random write failures and lockups with the machine. After all, I was using a card with over 100 MBs write speed and brand-new. There's more going on here than meets the eye, because my PRO card actually has an advertised write speed that is slower than the Extreme that did not work.

FYI, there is a single 64G card on the approved list, so go figure. I give up on it. I have a card that works and the machine has been flawless ever since.

 

[Sam Trenholme]

Question: Did you do a full format of that card before using it? I always do a full format, to make sure the card is not defective.

Let’s look at Tascam’s official compatibility list: http://tascam-ca.com/content/downlo...sd_dp-32_dp-32sd_tested_media_list_020518.pdf

The takeaway is this: With SanDisk, the standard and Ultra lines fairly frequently have problems. The smaller capacity Extreme and Extreme Plus cards sometimes have problems (Note that I used an older 2015 vintage 32gb Extreme card to record an entire album without problem on my DP-32SD). More to the point: The San Disk Extreme Pro cards have never been listed as not being compatible.

Now, let’s go over to http://tascam-ca.com/product/dp-32sd/specifications/ Here, they state that “The last group of digits of SanDisk SD cards vary by region and can be ignored”), and say that the SDSDXPA-032G-### is compatible (where “###” indicates the region where the card was sold). And, indeed, here in the US, the older SDSDXPA 32 gig card can be had for under $20: https://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B005LFT3QG/

However, I had very good results with cards not listed on the table. I have recorded most of an album on a SDSDXP-032G (SanDisk Extreme Pro, U3, 95mb/second read, 2016 vintage) without problem. The newer SDSDXXG-032G should not have any problems either, and is only $14 at https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod..._sdsdxxg_032g_gn4in_extremepro_sdhc_32gb.html right now.

(For people who must have a Tascam-listed card, B&H sells a Tascam listed as compatible SDSDXNE-016G-### card for $9 at https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod..._sdsdxne_016g_gnci2_extreme_16gb_sdhc_u3.html For people who must both have an officially listed compatible card and feel nostalgia for the days of $300+ tape reels with only 33 minutes of music recording time, one can get the SDSDXPK-032G-### for $60 at https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...sdxpk_032g_ancin_extreme_pro_uhs_ii_32gb.html )

In terms of the 64gb card we see on the list, let me test that theory right now. Nope, doesn’t work (A quick format exits right away and the DP-32SD says “NO CARD”; a full format locks the recorder; the card is good because I was able to subsequently format and take pictures with it in my digital camera). I am convinced that the listed compatible 64gb card is a typo, nothing more. Tascam could fix this with a firmware update, but have not done so.

(Back to the original poster, I think he has a bad apple, and should be OK once he gets the unit replaced and uses a decent SanDisk Extreme Pro card with it)

 

[-mjk-]

Sam, if you are asking me about the card formatting, the answer is yes. What I find interesting about the 64g card is that they not only made a typo in the card size, they made it typo in the card part number too.

 

[Randy Turner]

Great input Sam - much appreciated. Quick question: about 90% of my recording is one track at a time (three tracks for drums, two tracks for acoustic guitar). Does a 45mb card speed only become a potential limiting issue when recording multiple tracks simultaneously? Say, six or eight tracks simultaneously?

 

[Sam Trenholme]

Summary: Buy the card at https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod..._sdsdxxg_032g_gn4in_extremepro_sdhc_32gb.html I suggest getting four or five of them, because 1) This saves money with free shipping 2) We do not know for how much longer affordable 32gb high quality SDHC cards will be available.

Read the rest of this post to understand my reasoning behind this.

Use a 32 gigabyte card

The first thing to remember is this: Do not attempt to use a 64gb, 128gb, or 256gb card with a DP-24SD/DP-32SD. The highest capacity which will work is 32gb, because anything bigger than 32gb uses a technology called SDXC which the DP line of Portastudios do not support. Yes, I know, Tascam does list a single 64gb card as being compatible with the DP-32SD, but both MJK and myself are convinced, based on our own testing with 64gb cards, that this is a typo.

Card speeds: Theory and practice

In theory a class 6 (or class 10) card is fast enough to record and play back 32 tracks of 24-bit 48 khz digital audio (4.6 megabytes second; class 6 can handle 6 mb/second and class 10 can handle 10 mb/second).

In practice, SD speed ratings are designed for digital cameras, where we are not reading and writing at the same time, so a card rated to be able to write 10 megabytes a second (or read 45 megabytes or even 100 megabytes a second) may not work reading 3.5 megabytes a second while writing 1.2 megabytes a second (i.e. eight tracks at 24-bit 48khz while playing 24 24-bit 48khz tracks) at the same time.

This in mind, the only way we can know if a given card works is via empirical testing. That’s undoubtedly how Tascam makes their compatibility chart: They put a card in; record 24 tracks, then try to recording eight more tracks while playing back 24 tracks, followed by playing back all 32 tracks at once.

People usually buy SanDisk

While Lexar, Samsung, and others make SD cards, most people buy SanDisk cards (since they tend to be cheaper with the same speed ratings), so that brand is what has been empirically tested the most by users here (but some users have had good results with Lexar, probably better results than with SanDisk).

Understanding SanDisk’s line of cards

SanDisk makes several tiers of SD cards. In ascending order of price and quality: Standard (blue cards), Ultra (silver cards), Ultra Plus (also silver), Extreme (gold), Extreme Plus (also gold), Extreme Pro (Black with gold letters), and finally the very expensive Extreme Pro UHS-II cards.

SanDisk also makes white high endurance cards designed for dashcams and other security cameras, where there are more temperature extremes and write cycles than other use cases; I have not tested these, since SanDisk only announced a U3 high endurance card this year, and that card has not been released yet.

Use the SanDisk Extreme Pro

In our experience, and in the Tascam compatibility matrix, anything below Extreme Pro sometimes has problems. Extreme can (and in my case, has) worked if the capacity is higher, but MJK had an issue using an Extreme card in his DP-32.

I have never had an issue with a older 2016 vintage SanDisk Extreme Pro U3 95 megabyte/second card, and I have recorded most of an entire album on it. I will frequently record four tracks at a time while playing up to 28 tracks at a time (four tracks: A stereo synthesizer and its reverb).

In addition, I have just run a 30-second stress test with the current SDSDXXG-032G-### card (the one I link to at the top of this posting) and had no issues. I, over three passes, recorded 24 tracks of 30 second silence. I then went back and recorded another 8 tracks of 30 second silence while playing back the 24 tracks of silence. The DP-32SD did not report any read or write errors when running this test, which gives me confidence this card can handle a complex song without problem. This is a card I bought from B&H.

Tascam has also never seen an issue with a SanDisk Extreme Pro card, so if going the SanDisk route, I suggest using an Extreme Pro or better. Considering that 32gb Extreme Pro cards are only $14 right now, and are big enough for an entire album (115 minutes if using all 32 tracks at once, more if making songs using fewer tracks — keep in mind that one needs some free space for Audio Depot exports), I don’t see any point in taking chances with more inexpensive cards. Likewise, I don’t see the point of getting the $60 UHS-II Extreme Pro card, since one is paying four times more when the more inexpensive $14 Extreme Pro card works fine.

Be careful of counterfeits

Another thing to keep in mind is to buy from a reputable dealer. There are a lot of sellers on eBay and what not who will sell a counterfeit card which will not work. This is why I usually post B&H links; while Amazon directly sells the current 32gb SanDisk Extreme Pro card (the counterfeit issues on Amazon usually come from third party sellers), the chance of getting a counterfeit when buying direct from B&H are next to nil.

Why 32gb may be going away in a few years

When SanDisk updated their Extreme Pro line to have 170mb/second read (instead of 95 megabyte/second read) speed, they did not update the 32gb SDHC card. This indicates that SanDisk is no longer expending R&D on the 32gb capacity cards, which is probably the first sign of them phasing out and no longer making these cards. This is why I recommend getting four or five cards right now, while it’s still possible to get them brand new at a great price from a reputable dealer.

Indeed, reviews of the only 2gb pre-SDHC card B&H still sells indicate the quality of these older cards is going downhill (one guy ordered six and got two bad apples); SDHC cards will eventually decrease in quality as everything except Portastudios moves up to SDXC.

 

[Randy Turner]

Outstanding summary. Many thanks.

 

[-mjk-]

Great input Sam - much appreciated. Quick question: about 90% of my recording is one track at a time (three tracks for drums, two tracks for acoustic guitar). Does a 45mb card speed only become a potential limiting issue when recording multiple tracks simultaneously? Say, six or eight tracks simultaneously?

There is no way to definitively answer the question. With the "bad "card, sometimes it worked when recording one track. Sometimes it didn't. Sometimes I could do a mixdown and sometimes I could not. Once, I got away with doing heavy punching on six tracks. The next time I tried that I didn't.

 

[-mjk-]

Thanks so much @Sam Trenholme!

 

[Sam Trenholme]

To add to what I said before, I think it makes more sense to buy something from B&H instead of Amazon.

Why B&H is better than Amazon: Better and cheaper shipping

Amazon requires people to spend over $100 a year on “prime” membership to get free expedited shipping; otherwise you need a $25 order to get free slow shipping. If I want to get just one SanDisk Extreme Pro 32gb card for my DP-32SD, it will cost me $21.41 after shipping and tax at Amazon. The same card costs me $17.40 shipped to my front door at B&H. In both cases, it will take a little over a week for the item to arrive.

Now, if I stock up and get four of those DP-32SD memory cards at B&H ($50+ order), they pay for the shipping and guarantee that the item will arrive within a week. If I get seven of the cards and spend an extra $10 to get a nice protective case for the cards, the order is just above $100; at this point not only is shipping on the house, but B&H will also have the package delivered in three days.

Amazon, on the other hand, charges the same as B&H for the same item, but also delivers it via slow shipping, and it takes them a few days to get around to shipping the package. B&H almost always ships on the same day; I have only once had to wait an extra day for them to ship a package; Amazon only infrequently ships the same day. Last time I ordered from Amazon, it took them three days for them to ship the package, and two weeks to deliver the package. Ever since having that experience, I avoid buying from Amazon and order gear from B&H instead.

 

[Stew71]

Summary: Buy the card at https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod..._sdsdxxg_032g_gn4in_extremepro_sdhc_32gb.html I suggest getting four or five of them, because 1) This saves money with free shipping 2) We do not know for how much longer affordable 32gb high quality SDHC cards will be available.

(Edited for space)

This is a really helpful summary, thanks. I've just ordered a couple of the Pro cards from UK Amazon (£12-odd apiece).

This is for a version 1 DP24. From memory, I'm not running the most current firmware (1.19); pretty sure I had some glitches when I tried it several months back. Although that may have been 1.18. Are people finding the newest non-SD firmware OK with these cards?

 

[Sam Trenholme]

There have not been any firmware changes that affect SD card compatibility (yes, I looked at all DP-24 and DP-32SD firmware changes and the only update which even mentions SD cards is an old bug where the Portastudio would report “insufficient space” importing or exporting even though there was enough space on the card; there was an also a file error bug fixed in the latest firmware, but this does not appear to be card-specific).

Issues are caused when a low-end inexpensive card can not read 3.5 megabytes a second while writing 1.2 megabytes a second. With SanDisk, one needs to get an Extreme Pro card (gold lettering on a black background) to ensure that this does not happen (Extreme will usually work, but both Tascam and MJK have had issues).

Here is how a compatible SanDisk card looks:


If a SanDisk card doesn’t look like this (Gold-on-black), one might experience problems with the card (or not; I recorded an entire album on an older gold 2015 vintage Extreme card, but some of the tracks were 16-bit because that was before Tascam fixed an old issue with pops and clicks when making 24-bit recordings)

Another thing: Be sure to do a full format. Yes, this takes about 45 minutes with a 32gb card, but this is needed to make sure there are no errors on the card.

 

[Stew71]

Thanks. They are the cards I've ordered. If they work as well as I expect, I'll grab a couple more.

 

[Stew71]

...I've received the cards and thought I would test them with the H2testw utility for Windows. This utitility needs the cards to be formatted for Windows to work properly (it managed a write test with an unformatted card but then failed the read test. Both worked once the card had been formatted.)

Was expecting blazing speeds ('up to 95MB/s'!) & surprised to see a write speed of 20.4MB/s and read of 20.5MB/s. This compares with 17.4MB/s write speed, and 20.5MB/s read, on an old (Sandisk but not an Extreme Pro - I think an Ultra from memory) card that I use in my MPC Live.

I'll do some more tests (I'll format one of the cards I've been using in the DP24 & then test that), but I'm thinking there are a few possibilities here:

1) it's a fake. However the packaging/labelling seems spot on, also the capacity is what it should be, according to H2testw, and I was able to register the serial number with the Sandisk site. I guess the numbers could be cracked though.

2) my card readers are limiting the speeds. My laptop is really old (2011). My desktop is brand new & custom built for audio, but the card reader is integrated into the chassis & I'm not sure how it connects - perhaps it's a bit of a basic addition. (The fact that the read speed is the same for both old and new cards makes me wonder this). It wouldn't bother me if this was the case as I only use the computer card readers for backups/swaps with Audio Depot & speed isn't of the essence.

3) the new cards are faulty/a dud batch. I suppose if I find any other cards with faster read/write speeds (eg the ones I'm currently using in my DP24) that would rule out theory (2) and might suggest this.

4) It doesn't matter: these speeds are fast enough & it's the reliability, or some other issue I'm unaware of, that counts! I have NO idea whether this is the case - I record at 24bit/44.1, so presumably there's a simple mathematical way to see if the speed thing is a non-issue.

EDIT: Google tells me that 24bit/48KHz = 144KB/s, so a full 24 tracks reading simultaneously, or a mix of up to 8 recording and 16 playing back, would presumably be 144*24 = 3456KB/s = 3.375MB/s. Meaning that 20.5MB/s should be plenty. Does that seem a fair assumption?

I'll carry out a few more checks anyway. These cards were from Amazon directly (not a third-party seller).

 

[-mjk-]

#4

 

[Mark Richards]

DP-24, FW v1.19, recording with a SanDisk Extreme Pro SDHC 3/10/V30 32gb card that's being discussed. The card is now half full, has 773 files in 32 folders, and is error free.

I've moved songs onto and off of the card at various times between making recordings.

The card has zero disk fragmentation (inspected using the Windows defrag utility).

So, one less thing the DP-xx FW has to deal with when writing/reading files.

Sam, I'll add my thanks for your excellent posts on this subject. I think that, with some minor edits, the info in your post #29 in this thread would make a great addition to the Equipment Stickies, if you're so inclined.

 

[-mjk-]

I second the above.